Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

[thecontrolcentre]

[vurt]

[IncarnateX]

Wow tapper mike
I wonder if this argument is equal to that of the "drum machines take the jobs from real drummers"- campaign in the 80s? As to what people want: Does anyone knows how many gigs on average the Jazz virtuoso get compared to the average Dance producer? Just asking. But then again, if it turns out that people want more electronic produced dance music than Jazz, you can always argue it is because they have been brainwashed with bad taste and thus, the electronic producers end up as The Devil, no way how you put it. How convenient

And I don't recall many self-disciplined instrumentalists that showed the same discipline when it came to composition class and music theory compared to training scales on their beloved instrument for improvisation purposes (as stated in the OP). As if compositions and engagement in music theory don't require self-discipline

Far from all electronic producers use samples and construction kits, but then again how would you know? In the beginning of the 80s, some traditionalists completely missed the point of a sequencer and thought it made music on its own by touch of a button

I am jesting a little, but only a little. Here is a hug for you, my friend, for old times sake

Edit: And let us not forget that in the 1920s, it was actually Jazz music that was the work of The Devil. In some way it is like the young woman saying: I will never become as conservative and rigid as my mother and 20 years after, she is exactly that

I think what happened there is what always happens here, where people comment on something that is only tangentially related to the op.

In this case, it isn't about classifying different kinds of musicians in order of worthiness, but more about some band members not putting in the same effort as other band members. And I can certainly relate to that kind of frustration. A band only sounds as good as its laziest member.

Now watch, tapper mike will come along and tell me I was wrong about my interpretation.

Missed this comment. Are you sure about this Herodotus? My english sucks sometimes but even if this wasn’t a fact, he could have fooled me. Lazy bandmates seem a little too out of context

[IncarnateX]

However, the contempt could be mutual because on my side, I considered many of those "instrumentalists" nothing but self-obsessed masturbationists who turned their instruments into penis enlargements and litterally acted as if anyone else in a group was nothing but personal backing to their oh-so-fast-played improvisations.

What would figuratively acting like that look like?

I have unmuted you on test basis, Jan. I do not mind discussing this with you if you stay away from reading bad intentions into my OP or other posts. If I wanted a flamewar to happen, I am doing pretty bad, right?

To the question: It both looks and sounds like something. Here is a real life example: An ad hoc group has just been made in an interplay class (do not know if this is the right word in english). We have taken some arbitrary positions with our gear (as usual I am hiding in the back with my keyboard, right beside the drummer). A guitarist starts arguing that we should take other positions for acoustic reasons. He insists, so we comply. We start playing but is soon interrupted, now he want us to change the volumes of our gear to get the sound he thinks we should have. Done. We start playing again but have already at this point troubles with finding each other, we are not timed. The player notice that, interrupts again and start telling us how to play the piece. We try again. We find a kind of balance and do actually reach a point where we are ready to play solos (well, I am deffo not but I am an exception), so most of us look at the guitar player and nods at him...stop, interrupted again, that is not the best order; first sax and trumpet, then bass, then drums and finally guitar (while I am allowed to pass). We try again and our insecurity is now very audible in our interplay. Well, we do our best and get into it again by paying a lot of attention to each other’s moves. Now we are finally at the guitar hero’s turn: WHAAAM! What we hear is a guitar coming in like a tank, at full volume, with distortion, reverb, delay, chorus and whatnot completely hijacking our sound. The key of his “advanced” solo can hardly be recognized but even more anxiety provoking: he is playing so fast that none of us really can follow him. It simply sounds detached in all respects but despite his former criticism and demands, he obviously doesn’t notice himself. It all ends up in a bad experience where some of us almost feel guilty for the misery, though it is entirely the hero’s doing, if you ask me. Do I need to tell more? I bet I am not the only one who have experienced things like this.

[jancivil]

Edit: And let us not forget that in the 1920s, it was actually Jazz music that was the work of The Devil. In some way it is like the young woman saying: I will never become as conservative and rigid as my mother and 20 years after, she is exactly that

In the 1920s, jazz music was a lot of things. There were black people who will have liked to be serious composers but were restricted to pandering and, long story short, minstrel shows-derived material. It was a long time before anything we can call jazz was something anywhere in the vicinity of what we call art music. During the era I was born into there was a definite distinction between dance music and concert music. I remember hearing about it from my father, a jazz fanatic. You start off kvetching about the "jazzers" and the 'wannabe Chick Coreas", and we see still more manifestations of the beef you developed. The division is yours. I never heard of it. Of course I never heard of so many people that had zero interest in music before the EDMs could be *produced* in the Fruity with the Loops and so forth. And there is a division here. Sometimes there are clashes.

You decided you can't stand to hear from me and that's fine by me.
I have thoughts about what I see, and sometimes - not usually - I feel like saying something.

It still strikes me that you have these constructs set up (one term for this is straw man) in order to knock and make people you disagree with seem ludicrous. I'm looking at this only to see what tappermike did that gets him dissed on the most recent page of this. I'm not sure what it was, it's not articulated so well. He does get one thing across, that he doesn't appreciate poor musicianship. That's so terrible, is it.

I see bizarre shite like nothing 'academia' can do holds a candle to EDM "Sound Design", and there are a number of depressing things to see here. The reverse snobbery, which I predicted from the get-go, the bitching and moaning about the arrogance... the anti-virtuoso stance was promoted in the original post, which is really an anti-intellectual stance. It attracts the silly remarks of the fluffy one...

Where I ended up in SF - not luck, I went thru changes to get there - I wound up exposed to the real electronic music. Yes, I'm going there. I don't mean pop, I don't mean 'krautrock', I mean Pauline Oliveras, I mean SF Tape Music Center, from Morton Subotnick's idea originally. That too makes me a kind of snob. Pop music very rarely produces a gem; you know what happens to form that gem? MUSICIANS do their job right. People who took the time to get their chops together and did the hard work.

If you didn't and got into music school with no instrument? Well, I'm not the gatekeeper anywhere on earth, let alone in Denmark, but that's amazing to me.
So you developed a beef with show-off "jazzers". I tried to show something else but you can't handle dissent and thought having started a thread was some weight you could throw around and I would cave to you. You have a very particular, personal experience and some personal beefs you obviously still hold onto.

I grant you your point on underplaying as an alternative. It's a good point. Placed in this storyline, however what you have is you, with not really the sufficient chops to be widely considered as any "degree of excellent" among your colleagues but with this story you are telling us you are not only a real musician but superior to this other, brutish breed of wankers.

I think that's wrong. I am against that story being promoted or people thinking that's right. I also find you in the same breath saying one has to be at least mediocre if not competent on a melodic if not polyphonic instrument but that you can't be arsed to write in arpeggios, or fast figuration. You're lazy, then, yeah? Nothing personal, that's what people see, that's what you SAY, and whoever says that, there it is.

I am saying - not to you, you are set in your ways, have major beef with me and are unreachable - to the wider possibility of people reading this, that the more you obtain by the hard work and the accomplishment on instruments, the more your compositions will - not might, WILL - benefit by it. The understanding of TOUCH, of nuance, felicities of timing... you have better prowess melodically, if you're going to pencil in the faster figuration, your decisions WRITING arpeggi, all of it is going to be not just better, but you're going to have a better time with it and you'll enjoy more EASE doing it.

Don't be that guy Mr X is promoting.

[jancivil]

However, the contempt could be mutual because on my side, I considered many of those "instrumentalists" nothing but self-obsessed masturbationists who turned their instruments into penis enlargements and litterally acted as if anyone else in a group was nothing but personal backing to their oh-so-fast-played improvisations.

What would figuratively acting like that look like?

I have unmuted you on test basis, Jan. I do not mind discussing this with you if you stay away from reading bad intentions into my OP or other posts. If I wanted a flamewar to happen, I am doing pretty bad, right?

I characterized the OP as flamebait. Whether or not that's specifically what you wanted, I can't know. As I just wrote, it attracted some flames, only maybe you have no problem with that or maybe you are in tacit agreement with the anti-virtuoso sentiment. The tone of more than one of those is really, really atrocious but no problem.

You are doing me no favors telling me "I have unmuted you on test basis, Jan."
I don't care. I don't find the things you are telling us so compelling; I'm just being honest about it, note well.
What am I supposed to do with you telling me you'll discuss with me on condition of? You called me paranoid after I noticed you gaslighting me. Is that literal or figurative? It's insulting either way.

Your latest story is a story much like the first one. So, there are dicks in a school you went to. I'm sorry the experience was that poor for you. As I wrote just before this, I don't think projecting that narrow band of personal experience onto the wider world is such a good idea. I think it is a bad beginning for a premise, premise being in the title of the topic: instrumentalist snobs. There are all kinds of snob; I had insecurities at school up the yin yang: I was always going to be the lowest on the totem pole and a day late/a dollar short in that milieu. I remember trying to be friendly, yes, the superstar opera singer girls would have nothing to do with me. So, that's their prerogative, I had nothing to offer them.

So who cares who is a 'snob', I got what I could get and didn't develop a complex. I'll note this to segue into conclusion and then out: the reverse snob enjoys a lot of play at KVR.

To my view, right or wrong, it drowns out other voices. Like this notion that if someone doing music refuses to all be for the people all the time, it's suspect and needs to be characterized in certain language; 'elitist' enjoys a lot of play here too. Yeah, well elitist is a heavier thing to say than some people have the awareness to realize. It's unfair, and it's kind of dark to me. Being in light is doing all you can do; music is the best, it's the richest thing on earth as far as I'm concerned. I think taking the piss is not the best.

[IncarnateX]

It still strikes me that you have these constructs set up (one term for this is straw man) in order to knock and make people you disagree with seem ludicrous.

Look who is talking. You know why members cannot PM me? That was due to one of your PMed and highly insulting hate speeches. That for which you have been banned more than once.

And if you had paid attention, you would know that I am actually a key player and thus I did enter music school playing an instrument.
And playing an arp instead of step sequencing has nothing to do with musical laziness but the opposite. I have no patience to correct all of your over- and misinterpretations above, which as usual read as negative attentions as possible into other’s posts.

I am putting you on mute again and may give you another chance in a couple of years. I do not have the nerves for this deep dark delusional shit of yours.

[IncarnateX]

For those of you with lesser bias: I expect you to know that I am not saying "all instrumentalists are snobs". This thread is about "instrumentalist snobbery", so unless you identify yourself as a snob in this regard, this thread does not concern you personally, well, speaking in abstracts, this thread really concerns nobody personally. Anyone can open another thread about "compositional snobbery" if they like. I wouldn't even feel targeted if that was the case.

My sax player friend was not a snob though he could play that tenor impressively. He was very open minded and even took time to show up in my home studio to make some experimental electronica with sax on top. He didn't even get mad when I f 'd up the mix and made him sound like an alto sax. He just thought it sounded different and funny.

[sjm]

According to Wikipedia, who know everything , a mere 3 % of Turkey's land area is on European turf.

Which would be hard to achieve unless that 3% is actually in Europe, right? Which means by extension parts of Turkey must be in Europe.

We don't get to rewrite facts just because they don't fit our narrative. It's not "fake news" that Turkey is in Europe. It's geography.

[foosnark]

I think some cross-pollination is useful in music. Sure, playing an instrument or two, or seven, can help you make better electronic music. I don't think virtuousity matters though unless you're directly playing stuff -- just having a feel is probably enough for composition.

Studying music theory can also help, to a point. I think it's actually less useful than listening to a lot of music and developing good aesthetic judgement, though.

Likewise, having a solid grasp of the history, engineering and mathematics of electronic music can help. But again, it isn't necessarily vital.

I think the main thing is, a lot of people underestimate the diversity of music has been and is being made, electronically or not. And they limit themselves too much.

[fmr]

To me Turkey is not part of Europe.

Why on earth not? Has the definition of continent been rewritten while I was asleep?

Of course they are. Not many centuries ago the Otoman Empire dominated the entire southeast of Europe, making frontiers with the Austrian Empire and the Russian Empire. And the entire Mediterranean was theirs

Germany was much bigger once as well, but, i think we really don't want to go back to those times.

Well, if you started counting after Bismarck, then yes, it was. But before, there wasn't even anything called Germany

And the biggest there was before that was the Holy Roman Empire (the Sacrum Romanum Imperium) which wasn't exactly Germany, but a mix of several nationalities

Anyway, I don't want to go back anywhere, just saying that Turkey is certainly a country with a foot in Europe (and another in Asia), the same way Russia is a country with a foot in Europe and another in Asia.

[chk071]

Geographically, maybe. Politically and culturally, not so.

How did this topic end up discussing that anyway?

[IncarnateX]

Studying music theory can also help, to a point. I think it's actually less useful than listening to a lot of music and developing good aesthetic judgement, though.

Well, for all I can say: You (not you particularly, foosnark) may not like my electronic music as is on sound cloud. However, I assure you I could have made none of it without studying music theory. There is absolutely no "anti-intellectualism" to this (not directed at you foosnark). There are harmonies, melodies and counterpoint en masse all over it (well, counterpoint actually happens all the time in modern music in so far it is not played in unison or perfect harmonization but I use it very consciously in the same octaves at times).

One tune is in 6/8, Aladddin’s quest 3087, another is in 5/4, Maroon hunt, with an occasionally psytrance lead in 4/4 on top of it creating polyrhythmic figures and yadayadayada.

Besides, I have a few rules that I more or less apply to all of it:

1) No modulation if it can be avoided. If a bass figure in one key only can drive the whole thing, there is no need for modulation. If I use modulation, only one extra tonic, thank you.

2) There shall be more than one main theme or melody on top of the driving bass figure.

3) These themes shall be able to come together in counterpoint and thus be able to be played at the same time, though I do not always fulfill this demand because it can sound too complex after all. However, there are some tunes where it becomes very audible. In the end of the rather violent “Rush”, I go bananas in counter point bringing to the two main themes into one at the end of the tune.

4) The combination of elements has to vary all over the tune. When an element or theme is reintroduced, it is usually in new combinations with the other elements, though the elements may be few.

And some more I cannot recall right now. Of course, there are exceptions to the rules too.

I have no idea how the term “anti-intellectualism” is supposed to apply to everything without complex solos or whatever, but I dare to say that unless you are a very special talent, none of this can be done by ears alone. You have to compose, listen and correct – especially potentially clashing notes when going for counterpointed melodic themes. Thus, it may sound simple and easy but it takes a good deal of work that doesn’t come anyway near “musical laziness”. There is not much left to circumstances in this music. I know exactly what I am doing and control each and every note because I know my basic theory...even though it may all be a venture in bad taste to you ("you" in a general sense).

https://soundcloud.com/incarnatex

[tapper mike]

There are two means of studying theory. One literal and the other is applied. Unfortunately the former doesn't bond to the user in any meaningful way aside from being able to verbally recite means and methods. I was trapped by this for a very long time as I would read and read over and over again about theory and didn't apply any of it to my performance. It's also good to remember that theory is often situational. What can work in one genre may not work in another. In that instance wisdom/experience will always trump knowledge.

The problem with what people trying to bridge genre's is that they have the same issues of previous generations and generations before. They are seeking validation when none is earned. They don't want to physically apply themselves to the task to properly embrace the character that the style demands and yet they expect to be validated for the means they choose to approach things which in more than not occasions is not applicable. Sure I'd be happy to take on a musician in a blues jam if the venue was specifically a blues jam and let them solo after they had proven themselves to carry the tune. No I would not be interested in bringing up a complete stranger if I were in a paying gig where attendees were of the expectation for a high level of ability and experience. Sorry I do jazz shows for money and I have a reputation as a performer which hinges on my performance. I also don't show up and raves or what every they are called these days and try to steal the stage.

Getting back to validation for a moment. There have been quite a number of artists who have done crossover work. It didn't happen by magic. It didn't happen by instant validation. It happened by hard work it happened by letting go of some notions and embracing different ideas. Chet Atkins was not a classically trained musician. His hybrid / Travis style of picking is nothing like classical picking. However he was interested in what traditional classical guitar had to offer. So he learned new approaches to the instrument and applied them to classical standards. He embraced the methodology fully. In later years he was able to incorporate the two distinct different methods and mentalities. It didn't happen over night. He was already a successful performer at the time. He didn't look for validation of what he could already play when he started taking classical lessons. He was able to let that part of himself go and focus on what he wanted to attain. There are hundreds if not thousands of musicians, composers, arrangers who have done this.


I'm in a position where I don't have to take on students. If I do take on a student I'll drop them in a month when I see a lack of commitment. I have one student right now that I teach via Skype. If I tell him to practice the harmonic minor scale in all twelve keys. He'll practice two keys a day and it will show in his performance. Then we'll work out applying ideas over various chord changes and developing lines, licks etc. He's 16 years old. He's dedicated. If I ask him what kind of music he listens to he gives me the names of jazz artists and song titles. I'll sit down and work out arrangements for performance. We'll work through the chord changes and the melody then play it through and I encourage him to improvise over the top using the approaches we've covered. This young man is a player, not a poser. I'm more than happy to return to this approach and guess what... It's work for me too. I have to show proficiency to earn credibility. He's practicing the scales I'm practicing the scales first. He's learning the transcriptions. I'm transcribing and working through the transcriptions. He's learning the lines and phrases I'm relearning them (muscle memory isn't all that it seems)

Before taking him on as a student I had little interest in single note jazz soloing. I'd put most of that behind when I embraced chord melody which has been my main interest for the last 10 years. I've posted some of my transcriptions on my website https://tappermike.com/anotherfolder/20 ... e-23-2018/ I have more however I've been very pressed for time from July through August I'm working 7 days a week with two to three doubles. Yet still I find a way to work out material. Bring a guitar to work and sit in my car between shifts

[IncarnateX]

Well, you make god sense Tapper Mike and none of what you write here would I apply to any snobbery. Though I do not know what you mean by ravers stealing the scene. Are there not dedicated jazz clubs for musicians like you that would never hire ravers? Ravers belong in dance halls, cellars, under bridges and appeal to a rather young public on designerdrugs if you ask me. That can hardly be the same scene, can it?