Do not underestimate Reason...

[quincy]

sorry but rack filters are nowhere near as flexible as reason - thats just midi in and out or audio in and out - thats not audio translated into CV to then affect the filter envelope that affects the same audio

in fact im pretty sure that ext cant do that either

i may add i dont use reason ! - don't ask

Wrong about XT i'm afraid. Because XT handles multi in/out plugs, you could potentially control any parameter the plugin cares to share with you, with any other. This has obviously not been the norm in the past, but modular hosts make it possible, and i think devlopers are starting to take account of this.

I personally intend to make some plugs (with synthedit) that allow different sources to control one another, for modular madness

That is awesome! I'm glad that eXT is moving in that direction so rapidly! AD80 I totally forgot about Tracktion with rack filters...and I OWN a license!

These are both extremely flexible and development is fast and furious, specially eXT.

I used to use Tracktion, but the Rewire implementation is weak (doesn't loops worth a hoot) and MIDI editing is clumsey. Hopefully that will be sorted in 2.

I could see me delving into eXT to build some cool setups, but it would take me some time to get acclimated, and I am working so much lately, I barely have time to be creative The tutorials that the user group for eXT is doing makes it an attractive community to get involved in and Jorgen is a machine!! I've had some stability issues with it in Live, so I've steered away from it, but I guess I should give back and try to work through the issues with Jorgen. I own eXT as well!

The thing I always come back to Reason for is that its solid as a rock and the CPU util is so low, I can stack and stack and stack

Rapidly isn't the word! Jorgen is the one of the fastest devlopers i've ever witnessed, and he has a frankly disturbingly fast ability to implement user requests!

For 39euro you can't go wrong, it can add something to almost anyones setup.

I personally think it a bloody incredible piece of software for 39euro, and the cliche bounced around about "swiss army knife of music software" is entirely accurate.

If the sampler is really as good as the teasers show, that will be worth several times the XT asking price alone.

[AD80]

-="I beat the Internet...the end guy is hard"=-

I just noticed your sig hahaha.


Anyways, I agree about the CPU hit. Reason's really efficient. Its missing some things for my taste tho. Hopefully in V3.

[BONES]

If it was so bad, then there wouldn't be so many people using it.

Using that logic, The Spice Girls must be the greatest musical act of all time.

Crystal Method, BT, NIN, Beastie's, Liam, all use it. They can use whatever they want because they can afford it, and they do. But they all use Reason because they like it. Why is that?

Most likely its because they have never heard of ORION Platinum and someone gave them a Reason license.

Are you telling me that all of the big studio's should chunk their stuff and use Orion only?

I think they should certainly have it there. Their customers would really appreciate it after they spent 5 minutes with it. Big studios need to have a variety of tools so that their customers can use was is familiar, it only sometimes is indicative of what is actually best.

I own orion, and I don't think it has effects that can touch RV7000 and Scream4 nor can they touch the low CPU utilization. I can create almost any effect I want with spiders. I have the flexibility to build what I want. As for sounds, it comes with tons of sounds, they have free refills you can download from the props site.

I'm glad you have so much time to f**k about downloading sounds and f**king around with spiders. I prefer to use a studio where everything I need is already there and I can just insert it, tweak a few things and get on with making songs.

that's why they say "when I use it with Traktion", "when I use it with Live4". No different than when you say that you use your own plugins to augment orion. I use Reason to Augment Live4. What's the difference?

About $500.

Reason has a cutoff knob/slider just like most apps. So all you have to do is turn/slide it.

Except it's somewhere else, not in the app you are working with so you need to bring Reason to the front, run up and down your rack until you find the synth. Then you can tweak the knob.

To add the "same sounding" delay, its easy in orion...because you have the SAME DELAY that you use every single time.

Actually, ORION Platinum ships with about 7 different delays or so.

I can BUILD delays that do exactly what I want.

I don't need to, the're right there already.

Want the LFO of the synth to change the Delay wet/dry?

No.

You want the delay amount to control the Filter on the synth?

No thankyou. But I could always copy and paste automation if I did.

You want to be able to control the exact delay pattern? Hook a matrix to it and have fun.

MultiFX container with a delay and sidechain-controlled gate in series. Piss o' piss.

Want to have 2 Delays, 2 reverbs, unison, chorus, etc all merged into one effect or split into multiple effects on groups or single synths, no problem. Good luck doing those things with your stock effects and their limited routing.

MultiFX, BandFX, sidechains and mixer sub-busses will allow me to do any and all of those things in a straightforward and familiar way.
ORION's great strength is that it takes well established, familiar concepts and implements them in a straightforward way. No need to invent spiders of have ridiculous back panel cable plugging.

[TVD]

Cool Edit is being updated all the time!! . But it's now called Adobe Audition, since Adobe bought Syntrillium last year.

Adobe bought Cool Edit Pro, Cool Edit 2000 has been discontinued. It was CEpro without the multi-tracking, although I do have a 4-track plugin that more than fills my needs.

By the way Bones, did you know that Audition is still the only audio editing software that can stand up to the the Pro Tools standard?

Did you know that Audition's editing power is more superior than Sonar, Logic, Cubase SX, & DP combine?

At v1.5, did you know that Audition can use DX/VST effects as well as its own? Hell, it even has Rewire for us FLS and Orion users out their

If you even reconsider about moving up from Cool Edit Pro, Audition is the way to go (when you feel like it ).

[Sascha Franck]

By the way Bones, did you know that Audition is still the only audio editing software that can stand up to the the Pro Tools standard?

What is that "ProTools standard"?
Does it save or open PT files?
In any other case, you're just spreading more BS, Tony, just as usual I was about to say.

I mean, hello, did you REALLY compare Audition to Sonar, Logic and Cubase?
You must be even more clueless than I thought until now...

[drez]

If it was so bad, then there wouldn't be so many people using it.

Using that logic, The Spice Girls must be the greatest musical act of all time.

Are you saying that the spice girls used Reason? If I made the same statement about ProTools, your argument makes even less sense. I'm sure the spice girls used Pro Tools or possibly an SSL console at some point. Does that mean those products suck? No. I don't get what you are saying.

Crystal Method, BT, NIN, Beastie's, Liam, all use it. They can use whatever they want because they can afford it, and they do. But they all use Reason because they like it. Why is that?

Most likely its because they have never heard of ORION Platinum and someone gave them a Reason license.

Well, there's a reason they haven't heard of it. It isn't that great or unique. Besides, I doubt one of the Props walked up to Trent Reznor and shoved a Reason box in his hand and begged him to use it. They can use ANYTHING they want, but still these high end musicians/producers use Reason. I don't think Marketing has that much to do with it. The product is stable, fast to work in, and obviously has a following of people that actually enjoy working in it beCAUSE of the hardware paradigm.

These guys use the craziest plugins and hardware that barely anyone has ever heard of. Most of them have these esoteric black boxes that they found that they really like, and I doubt those companies have this "massive marketing machine". They use things because it makes their music better.

Are you telling me that all of the big studio's should chunk their stuff and use Orion only?

I think they should certainly have it there. Their customers would really appreciate it after they spent 5 minutes with it. Big studios need to have a variety of tools so that their customers can use was is familiar, it only sometimes is indicative of what is actually best.

Then why can't they also use Reason for the same principal you are saying they should have Orion in there? Definitely use a variety if you can. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I own orion, and I don't think it has effects that can touch RV7000 and Scream4 nor can they touch the low CPU utilization. I can create almost any effect I want with spiders. I have the flexibility to build what I want. As for sounds, it comes with tons of sounds, they have free refills you can download from the props site.

I'm glad you have so much time to f**k about downloading sounds and f**king around with spiders. I prefer to use a studio where everything I need is already there and I can just insert it, tweak a few things and get on with making songs.

To each his own, I guess. I hate pulling up a preset from the same old same old. I'd rather make something unique.

that's why they say "when I use it with Traktion", "when I use it with Live4". No different than when you say that you use your own plugins to augment orion. I use Reason to Augment Live4. What's the difference?

About $500.

Well, I'd gladly pay that to have tools that work for me instead of the money I wasted on Orion. For me, it wasn't worth $50. I chalked that up to experience. Live4 and Reason were worth every penny.

Reason has a cutoff knob/slider just like most apps. So all you have to do is turn/slide it.

Except it's somewhere else, not in the app you are working with so you need to bring Reason to the front, run up and down your rack until you find the synth. Then you can tweak the knob.

No, I can just draw the automation in Live4, and never go to Reason. Besides, alt+tab is a pretty easy key combo, and (unless you use no rhyme or reason to your rack layout) it doesn't take long to find "a knob". Alt+Leftclick on one module minimizes all of them in the rack. Then you can just open the one you need. Simple.

To add the "same sounding" delay, its easy in orion...because you have the SAME DELAY that you use every single time.

Actually, ORION Platinum ships with about 7 different delays or so.

I can BUILD delays that do exactly what I want.

I don't need to, the're right there already.

I guess that's what's different for you and me. I rarely use the same one more than a handful of times. It keeps me creative.

Want the LFO of the synth to change the Delay wet/dry?

No.

You want the delay amount to control the Filter on the synth?

No thankyou. But I could always copy and paste automation if I did.

Yeah, that works. Too bad if you were wanting to tweak the root automation that you "copied" from. Now you have to replicate the changes out to wherever you copied them to. Do that for several modules. Talk about killing your workflow. Reason allows me to completely automate it from one source and then, if I want, modulate THAT from ANOTHER source(s).

You want to be able to control the exact delay pattern? Hook a matrix to it and have fun.

MultiFX container with a delay and sidechain-controlled gate in series. Piss o' piss.

Yeah, but what is controlling your gate? An audio source? "I" control mine by drawing in exactly what I want in the matrix.

Want to have 2 Delays, 2 reverbs, unison, chorus, etc all merged into one effect or split into multiple effects on groups or single synths, no problem. Good luck doing those things with your stock effects and their limited routing.

MultiFX, BandFX, sidechains and mixer sub-busses will allow me to do any and all of those things in a straightforward and familiar way.
ORION's great strength is that it takes well established, familiar concepts and implements them in a straightforward way. No need to invent spiders of have ridiculous back panel cable plugging.

Ah, but to me you are using more archaeic forms of control. How do you automate those changes? Are you contolling those delay times, and taps through automation of knobs that you have to go and draw in by hand or tweak individually? You'd be tweaking as much as a Reason user

Band effects are great and you can do those in Reason with a simple BV512 running in EQ mode and then running CV out for each frequency band to whatever CV input that you want per band and separate your control 16 ways. You apply the same basic principal to whatever effect you want be it Frequency based delays/reverbs/filters or any combo you choose. Once you figure it out, its easy to setup and way more flexible.

Sure, To create a "breathing" reverb can be done "familiar" in Reason (yes it has a mixer that you can chain or bus to other mixers and the RV7000 has gating built in) or you can drop a Matrix down and control the "mix" exactly how you want by creating the curve or gate to do it, or by letting other modules change those parameters for you in the context of the sound that you are making by allowing the changes you make with the synths (Frequency changes, Oscialation CV info, etc.) to control those settings for you. With the Matrix I can Program rhythmic effects exactly how I want them. Its fun and, for me, a creative boost.

There is something to be said for a simple looking interface like Orion, but for me, that something is very little. It does nothing for me creatively. That's why it sits on the bookshelf. But that's what its all about...stimulating creativity and if Orion does that for you, great! But Reason does it for a ton of people and that shows that it is an established product that is used by a full range of users from beginners to the best.

To get really good at using any product, it takes time and it takes learning to use it for what it can/can't do. Everytime I crack open Reason, I find a completely new and cool way to manipulate my creativity because I can always ask "what if I tried THIS" and come up with a new answer everytime.

[CypherOne]

I'm fairly certain that BONES meant that just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good quality (ref the Spice Girls comment)

[ericj23]

so lets be really clear about this ext can use a peice of AUDIO to control the a parameters of a number of plug -ins

cos thats what i said reason can do

cos in truth controlling lots of vst parameters at once is just a copy and paste away using host automation

and bones are you saying orion has logic style side chains etc ? cos im off ot investigate that

[drez]

I'm fairly certain that BONES meant that just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good quality (ref the Spice Girls comment)

But if millions of people like them, then what is wrong with that? Who's to say that its "not good quality"...You? Bones? Me?

I say if you like it, listen to it. I don't care what people say about it. Same with your kit.

[CypherOne]

I'm fairly certain that BONES meant that just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good quality (ref the Spice Girls comment)

But if millions of people like them, then what is wrong with that? Who's to say that its "not good quality"...You? Bones? Me?

I say if you like it, listen to it. I don't care what people say about it. Same with your kit.

I was only translating, I couldn't care less about Reason or other stuff, I've got the kit I need to do what I want.

[drez]

cos in truth controlling lots of vst parameters at once is just a copy and paste away using host automation

Yes, but if you want to CHANGE it, it becomes a whip. You have to copy it in (quite possibly) a lot of different places. With CV control, I can have one thing control tons of other things. Then I just have to tweak that one thing to change the rest. Ghost copies are what you have in eXT and that's a great start, but with Reason, its simple...just drag another CV cable off of the spider and instant automation, all synced up perfect.

[drez]

I was only translating, I couldn't care less about Reason or other stuff, I've got the kit I need to do what I want.

Heh, I know you were.

[headquest]

By the way Bones, did you know that Audition is still the only audio editing software that can stand up to the the Pro Tools standard?

What is that "ProTools standard"?
Does it save or open PT files?
In any other case, you're just spreading more BS, Tony, just as usual I was about to say.

I mean, hello, did you REALLY compare Audition to Sonar, Logic and Cubase?
You must be even more clueless than I thought until now...

I'm not sure what TonyVanDam meant either, but Audition is a top shelf product, used by many professionals worldwide, so don't be quick to knock it!

I've used Cubase extensively and demoed Sonar in detail... in terms of pro features (but within the limited field of audio editing) I have to agree that Audition has more in depth professional audio editing than the intergrated efforts within any of the sequencers. That's why people use external audio editing software rather than doing it all within the sequencer.

Having professional audio editing software is basically standard, and of the various pieces of software on the market (e.g. WaveLab, Sound Forge, etc) I think that Audition certainly brings something more to the party, and is very highly acclaimed in the industry.

[Sascha Franck]

I'm not sure what TonyVanDam meant either, but Audition is a top shelf product, used by many professionals worldwide, so don't be quick to knock it!

I never meant to knock it - but that PT comparison was just as lame as things could get.
IF there is some PT standard, it's based on files that you transfer from studio to studio (so it's up to the file format) or based on the existance of some rather expensive plugins.
When it comes to audio editing, there's no such thing as a "standard". It either is good (or let's say suitable) or not.

I've used Cubase extensively and demoed Sonar in detail... in terms of pro features (but within the limited field of audio editing) I have to agree that Audition has more in depth professional audio editing than the intergrated efforts within any of the sequencers. That's why people use external audio editing software rather than doing it all within the sequencer.

Of course. But that's like the usual apples and oranges comparison.
Logic, Cubase and Sonar are basically MIDI sequencers.
They're not aiming at audio editing in the first place at all - so any comparison between those and Audition (or maybe PT, or Wavelab, or whatever your taste is after) is just clueless.

I think that Audition certainly brings something more to the party, and is very highly acclaimed in the industry.

As said, I don't doubt that for a second - but still, saying it'd match some PT standard (which is *quite* something else) or even comparing it to MIDI based sequencers is clueless - but it seems Tony is trying to become a big name in doing clueless comparisons and assumptions.

[BONES]

and bones are you saying orion has logic style side chains etc ? cos im off ot investigate that

Sidechains are hardly a "Logic style" thing, they've been around in hardware for yonks and ORION has had them for several years.