Do not underestimate Reason...

[headquest]

I never meant to knock it - but that PT comparison was just as lame as things could get.
IF there is some PT standard, it's based on files that you transfer from studio to studio (so it's up to the file format) or based on the existance of some rather expensive plugins.

Agreed!

Logic, Cubase and Sonar are basically MIDI sequencers.
They're not aiming at audio editing in the first place at all - so any comparison between those and Audition (or maybe PT, or Wavelab, or whatever your taste is after) is just clueless.

Yes, I think TonyVanDam was missing it!

Regarding the ProTools comparrison I can see that many Windows-based musicians, engineers, etc use it for mixing and mastering rather as Mac-based studios use PT, but there any similarity ends! (an btw I don't think that WaveLab or SoundForge are used in this way - they are more exclusively for destructive audio editing.)[/quote]

[BONES]

I don't care what people say about it. Same with your kit.

Are you sure? Because it seems to me that you are taking negative comments about Reason pretty damned badly.

I find it very hard to believe that you tried ORION and chose Reason over it. They are, at heart, very similar but Reason is so much more limited and yet offers no advantage in sound quality [or any other department for that matter]. You don't like the interface, neither do I so I completely changed it. I really fuckin' hate Reason's interface but there's f**k-all anyone can do about it.

Maybe you enjoy the challenge of getting around these limitations, it certainly seems from your post that you do, but you must surely understand that if there is an easier way to do things, most of us will take it.

You said "To get really good at using any product, it takes time and it takes learning to use it for what it can/can't do.". That might be true for you but ORION works exactly the way I have always worked in hardware and because it is so intuitively laid-out [except for where he moved the arpeggiator to] I have only ever looked at the help on two occassions in what must be coming up to 5 years or so.

You also seem to put a lot of stock in automation. I automated WaspXT's filter envelope decay on one song. Apart form that, the only thing I automate are mixer levels. I do eveything else with modulation. From the vast number of VSTi around with poor and/or limited modulation options, I imagine that it is something that many people ignore.

You hinted that I'm a preset guy. What I meant was that I don't use a lot of presets, except those I have made myself, I much prefer to spend my time creating my own sounds, not searching the net for downloads.

If you can't use the same delay more than twice, I think maybe you need to spend a little time seeing just how many different effects you can get from a simple delay. BTW, I counted 'em and there are 8 in my current beta, although I think there is one I have never used.

At the end of the day, I don't believe that Reason is bad, I just feel that there are more powerful, easier to use app's that offer significantly better value. I also believe, and it would be hard not to agree, that much of it's extrordinary success is due to marketing. In the context of the thread title, those are reasonable points to make.

[BONES]

On the Audition front, I'm sure its perfectly wonderful. Cool Edit Pro is a standard for audio editing in the television/video production industry so I'm equally sure that it's future is bright but CE2k supports DX plugins and has all the audio editing features I need in a really well thought-out interface. I can't imagine what sort of killer feature it might take to make me see it as less than ideal for my use.

[headquest]

Are you telling me that all of the big studio's should chunk their stuff and use Orion only?

I think they should certainly have it there. Their customers would really appreciate it after they spent 5 minutes with it. Big studios need to have a variety of tools so that their customers can use was is familiar, it only sometimes is indicative of what is actually best.

Then why can't they also use Reason for the same principal you are saying they should have Orion in there? Definitely use a variety if you can. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Let's not start on hammers... OK then, let's...

For starters, my hammer is better than your hammer, and if you argue with that you're a halfwit.

My hammer can do everything that I need it to around the house. And what's more, it worked straight out of the box.

The fact is you don't need any other tools if you've got a hammer like mine. I just don't get it when people start mouthing off about needing screw-drivers, chisels, drills, and so on. They have been so foolish simply believing the hype in the ScrewFix catalogue.

I'm bloody angry with the tossers who invented the pliers and then convinced us we all need a pair. If you think you need to get a nail out of the wall, just use your hammer to bash a freakin' hole - that'll do the job just fine! All the rest is just marketing spin and product placement.

Turn on the telly there days and all you see is people using shiny new tool sets - it is so unfair the way the screw-driver company pay for TV execs for this publicity!!

I heard about a professional carpenter who actually uses chisels! The guy is obviously misguided and ignorant - if only somebody had told him that you can do it all with a hammer!!

I have never found myself needing any other tool than my hammer. It's good enough for every job in my home.

OK, I admit it ... I live in a cave.

[crazed one]

Hey didn't we have about 200 threads like this last year?

[Sascha Franck]

Orion isn't x-platform, Reason is.
That'd make a BIG advance for me.

[BONES]

If that's the case then you clearly revel in your limitations.

[Warmonger]

I also believe, and it would be hard not to agree, that much of it's extrordinary success is due to marketing.

For me, it's all about workflow, and for the way I work, FL Studio and Orion just get in the way. I generally don't want anything to do with pattern sequencing, and that just happens to be the strength of those two apps. Furthermore, I like having everything visible at once. I don't like having a million windows open at one time. That's also why I prefer Tracktion to any other DAW. I've tried demos of FL on at least 3 separate occasions, and Orion about the same, and I keep coming back to Reason because it works best for me. Now, what does that have to do with marketing? And see how easy it was for me to not agree with you?

Besides all that, I actually prefer the sound quality of the Subtractor to the Wasp. Maybe it's just because I'm used to it, but I would honestly take just the Subtractor over the entire Orion bundle. Not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but that's the way I feel. Of course, that's not to say I'd prefer a Subtractor over the impOSCar, or some other such beast of a VST, but that's a different topic

[nuffink]

If that's the case then you clearly revel in your limitations.

You should be happy then. Since you trumpet your use of only one and half synths (approx.) loudly and often.

[drez]

I don't care what people say about it. Same with your kit.

Are you sure? Because it seems to me that you are taking negative comments about Reason pretty damned badly.

Bones, I haven't taken these comments badly, and I guess I should have put some smiley's in there, but I'm not pissed off about anything you've said. I'd like to think I've been completely civil in this thread. I am merely correcting what I believe are flawed statements about the product. Your opinion is entirely subjective as is mine. I'm big enough to live with that and I know you are too, so I'm not upset about it one way or another.

I find it very hard to believe that you tried ORION and chose Reason over it.

Believe it.

They are, at heart, very similar but Reason is so much more limited and yet offers no advantage in sound quality [or any other department for that matter].

Completely your opinion, but my opinion is completely opposite. I think that the sounds that "I" create in Reason are better than what I could come up with in Orion using Orions stock stuff. You obviously think that everything that Orion has is superior to Reason. I don't. I like the "sound" of the modules in Reason and I like how they work together. Orion has good modules, but they don't work together like Reasons, and I guess the Reason paradigm fits in my head better. But that goes for all of the sequencers except Ableton Live...Cubase, orion, logic, etc. I click with Ableton because they do things differently (session view)...or the same if you perfer (arrangement view). That appeals to me.

You don't like the interface, neither do I so I completely changed it.

Yeah, I tried your skin, and it didn't help me like Orion any better. As for making my own skin, I fall back on your argument that I'd rather be making music than making skins.

I really fuckin' hate Reason's interface but there's f**k-all anyone can do about it.

Well, they can do like you do with your modules. They just use them. I don't like the way that automation is handled in Orion, and there's not alot I can do about that.

Maybe you enjoy the challenge of getting around these limitations, it certainly seems from your post that you do, but you must surely understand that if there is an easier way to do things, most of us will take it.

I'd say the majority of the people in the world do that very thing. But for me, easier isn't necessarily best. Its just...easier. Easier has nothing to do with doing it better. And to me, Reason does it better.

You said "To get really good at using any product, it takes time and it takes learning to use it for what it can/can't do.". That might be true for you but ORION works exactly the way I have always worked in hardware and because it is so intuitively laid-out [except for where he moved the arpeggiator to] I have only ever looked at the help on two occassions in what must be coming up to 5 years or so.

Oh Orion isn't complicated to get around in at all. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just don't like the way its laid out. As you said, it works exactly like the hardware you've always used.

Reason, doesn't. It looks like hardware, but you use it completely different than normal. THAT's what I like. Running things through all sorts of paths is cool to me, and that's what I like about it.

You also seem to put a lot of stock in automation. I automated WaspXT's filter envelope decay on one song. Apart form that, the only thing I automate are mixer levels. I do eveything else with modulation. From the vast number of VSTi around with poor and/or limited modulation options, I imagine that it is something that many people ignore.

Possibly. Or they prefer the direct control of Automation. I am the latter. Almost always, I like being able to change things exactly how I want them, not "letting it do its thing". I know what you mean about modulation, but I don't think its always the preferred route. With automation, I can consistently make something do what I want it to, every single time. That's what I need.

You hinted that I'm a preset guy. What I meant was that I don't use a lot of presets, except those I have made myself, I much prefer to spend my time creating my own sounds, not searching the net for downloads.

Agreed. I prefer to program patches myself or tweak the best ones.

If you can't use the same delay more than twice, I think maybe you need to spend a little time seeing just how many different effects you can get from a simple delay. BTW, I counted 'em and there are 8 in my current beta, although I think there is one I have never used.

Oh I'm aware of how many I can get. Reason's Basic delay is exactly that. A basic delay. But it has CV automation capability, I can run tons of them because they have no CPU hit, and I can automate them to do my bidding. Using them as inserts and splitting them into spiders that delay other synths individually or merged. Its great! Why would I have to use the same delay type over and over when its more creative to build another one.

At the end of the day, I don't believe that Reason is bad, I just feel that there are more powerful, easier to use app's that offer significantly better value. I also believe, and it would be hard not to agree, that much of it's extrordinary success is due to marketing. In the context of the thread title, those are reasonable points to make.

Agreed. They have good marketing. That's not a bad thing, just good business. I don't think that they are liars and "salessnakes" either. I think they market a good product and do it very well.

And yes Bones, I don't feel you think Reason is the spawn of Satan...it just doesn't fit your work style and you don't like the sound it makes But its obvious that you and I produce our music totally differently. It only makes sense that we would have different choices in our tools, and that doesn't make the other guys tools any less powerful, just different.

That is fine with me, I'm glad that you use Orion because I like the stuff that you make with it! If you didn't use Orion, you might not be able to do the things you do, and that wouldn't be good for any of the people that listen to your music.

[drez]

Are you telling me that all of the big studio's should chunk their stuff and use Orion only?

I think they should certainly have it there. Their customers would really appreciate it after they spent 5 minutes with it. Big studios need to have a variety of tools so that their customers can use was is familiar, it only sometimes is indicative of what is actually best.

Then why can't they also use Reason for the same principal you are saying they should have Orion in there? Definitely use a variety if you can. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Let's not start on hammers... OK then, let's...

[insert funny stuff here]

I have never found myself needing any other tool than my hammer. It's good enough for every job in my home.

OK, I admit it ... I live in a cave.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Caleb]

On the Audition front, I'm sure its perfectly wonderful. Cool Edit Pro is a standard for audio editing in the television/video production industry so I'm equally sure that it's future is bright but CE2k supports DX plugins and has all the audio editing features I need in a really well thought-out interface. I can't imagine what sort of killer feature it might take to make me see it as less than ideal for my use.

I might have to upgrade to Audition myself. I loved Cool Edit 2000, but although I've still got my registration details, I need to re-run the CE2000 set up exe on my computer due to various catastrophes - and I don't have this file anymore.

And I'm certainly not interested in any other audio editor. It must be CoolEdit2000 or Audition.

Caleb

[BONES]

Or they prefer the direct control of Automation. I am the latter. Almost always, I like being able to change things exactly how I want them, not "letting it do its thing".

This is precisely what I mean. I can get exactly what I want on every individual note or sequence through modulating stuff via note velocity. How many VSTi don't have useful velocity modulation? A shitload, that's how many. That was one of the prime reasons I got interested in SynthEdit.

[Reverend Rhythm]

Does anyone smell smoke?

[Rabid]

If that's the case then you clearly revel in your limitations.

You should be happy then. Since you trumpet your use of only one and half synths (approx.) loudly and often.