Musical shortcuts - How far do you go without guilty conscience?

[IncarnateX]

Hi
I am moving into semi-probability and semi-generative based music to force-break my anal musical structures and have an Analog Keys and Korg Karma to help me. However, when dealing with Korg Karmas preprogrammed auto sequences, I met an old ghost; my musical guilty conscience. First time I met this ghost was in the late 90s when I made two tunes buildt upon arab rhythm samples. It felt wrong then to use somebody else’s music as base for my own.

Next time I met this ghost was when I got the predator softsynth a decade later and found one preprogrammed arpeggiator melody so cool that I used it in my own tune and did not even bother to “personalize” it. Afterwards the ghost came to me and told me I was a thief and plagiator.

I guess we have different thresholds for morale scrupples with regard to musical shortcuts and my threshold seems very low. I have to find a way to deal with that when using auto sequences in Karma or leaving choices to Analog Keys.

My question is: Where is your own limit regarding such things as loops, auto arrangements, presequenced synth presets and so forth? Have you got any advice for my conscience to don’t give a living F about it or maybe the opposite, to feel really ashamed if I get help from machines to fulfil my quest and that I rather should stand up and fight to break my structures “manually”?

Pull me either way because right now I am just one big pile of ambivalence

IX

[dark water]

Make music which interests you.

Loops, auto arrangements, pre-sequenced synth presets and so forth are just tools to explore your own artistry.

Not many other people will care what you do with your music, unless you are very lucky.

Tell the ghost to stop bothering you, f**k off and make its own music.

[thecontrolcentre]

I use presets all the time if I'm inspired by them. It doesn't cause me any concerns ... I still process and write my own original patches, melodies, sequences, loops, etc too.

[jacqueslacouth]

I am literally the worst. I pretty much ONLY use synth presets because I have utterly no idea about sound design. I use drum loops or pre-programmed beats in drum software because I have no sense of rhythm, I use Captain Chords etc to come up with keyboard and bass stuff because my keyboard playing is gash, I use the Tascam vocal tuner thingy to overcome my soul destroying voice and Toontrack EZmix to finish things off (presets, presets). I do however start off by writing my own material on the acoustic guitar before embarking on heavy duty turd polishing...funnily enough, as the saying goes, a polished turd invariably remains a turd....but hey, I find it fun.

[justin3am]

I hold the opinion that there is no cheating in music. Do what thou wilt... and all that.
I have no problem using loops, pre-programmed patterns, samples of other people's music; as long as it fits the project (if I need to get clearance, I will worry about that when the project is done ). That said, I also spend a lot of time recording my own samples, programming my own sequences... hell, I even build/mod the equipment I use and (attempt to) write some of my own software.

The problem you will run up against, with this 'conscience' of which you speak, is second guessing yourself. As soon as you start second guessing decisions in music making, you might as well call it quits. To come up with something that is creatively satisfying, I have to let the juices flow without impediment (though when I'm working on a project for a client, my approach is different). If the conscience can get in the way when using a sequence you didn't program, it may also get you when you notice that a melody you are using has similarities to something else you heard recently. You may subconsciously decide that you stole that melody. You have to choose how much sway you conscience holds over your creative process (sounds simple but as with any creative block, it's not).

We are all influenced (you might go so far as to say, indebted) to the works of others. Inspiration can be considered stealing depending on who you ask and what they think of the outcome of that inspiration. Not giving a f**k is one approach but it's not something that most people can really do. You gotta find your balance.

[Zexila]

I use almost all shortcuts I can (presets, samples, loops, stems, chord generators and etc), have no shame in being inspired by someone else's tune or re-do parts I like, take no pride in parts, but just big picture, which ends up being presentation/sum of my taste and vision.

[harryupbabble]

If another, or maybe even a third person is using your same setup or same arpeggiators or same randomizers or presets or whatever and you three publish the same music phrases or whatever then maybe you won't accuse each other of plagiarism because you are all blatant plagiarists? Hahaha.

But if what you have in the end doesn't sound anything like what you allegedly stole from then... steal away?.

For example, if Jimmy Page stole the intro to Stairway To Heaven from the not-even-a-song Taurus tune then I say "Jimmy Page, you built the entire song from just that? Wow!!!"
Credit also goes to Robert Plant for his Lyrics and melodies. And the rest of the band, of course.

I'm not hearing the similarity anyway so maybe Jimmy Page never did steal anything from the band Spirit. Or or or my ears are just bad.

Taurus, by the band Spirit.


Stairway To Heaven by the band Led Zeppelin.

[herodotus]

I don't think of synth presets as a shortcut. That is akin to thinking of a factory made guitar as a shortcut (you should make or modify your own guitar), or thinking of a store bought drum set as a shortcut (you should make your own drums and cymbals).

This makes no sense to me. Musicians make music, and instrument makers make instruments. This is how things have worked since time immemorial.

That aside, I never use anyone else's loops or samples, unless we are talking about multisampled instruments like those made by GPO or VSO. I don't look down on those who use loops, it's just that I prefer the sound of my own drums to those made by others. If someone can wrest something interesting out of premade loops, more power to them.

[jancivil]

I don't have guilt about what I do at all.

in terms of a synth sound design I occasionally start with presets, although most of what I'm doing I am starting with something I made. It depends on what's needed.
There is no reason not to stand on the back of someone who's made a good preset. I got a really happening patch in Kontour recently but without the basis in the preset "Blown Solo" it doesn't happen. You have to learn from prior knowledge.

Right now I'm using VSL Synchron FX Strings, which is a pretty advanced product. Guess what? It's all loops. When I use something like these thunder sheet patches, part of their full percussion library, these are loops. It's very rich territory because they recorded somebody with imagination and chops, and did so extensively.
These things are very controllable in the interface and its power, and the FX Strings are next level. Crossfading, release characteristics, and so forth.
OTOH, the other end of the continuum here is EWQL RA, some of that either you have a use for the phrase in and of itself, by itself I mean, or not. You can't so much cobble together a performance with it, it's so shallow and so ill-conceived. And so poorly (if at all) documented.


But, and, SO, if someone can get on with that kind of workflow, more power to them.

I would not however say there is nobody cheating, and I mean cheating themselves and giving the rest of us a giant middle finger. I could give a fug what someone else does but there are people being so lazy it beggars belief. Well, I care when it's inflicted on me and in some places I've had to be it was. I mean one-bar loops and that's the entirety of the track. A one-bar shitty drum loop and a one-bar cheesy af piano bit that came with the OS or one of *those* DAWS so someone can "rap" some nonsense.

[jancivil]

stealing

It's probably apocryphal no matter who this is attributed to but: "A good artist borrows. A great artist steals."

To me that means you now own the thing, you marked it.

[IncarnateX]

Thanks a lot guys (and gals) for all your encouragement. Frankly, I thought that some of you might feel worse about it than me but then KVR authorities come around and say “don’t bother”. Now that is a comfort indeed. Big thanks.

Well, apart from the fact that this pretty much makes me the anal-sadist around as far as control and ownership concerns.
Thing is, this is not going to work for me without help. Before I went to music school in my lost youth, my music had something spontaneous, unstructured, unprincipled and innovative to it. After music school it became rigid though I did not mind it that much then because I wanted the control. But for two decades I have been looking for a way to return to this non-schooled wild element and I just cannot. My body, ears and brain just won’t do it. Now I have the means and only need to kick my guilty conscience out of the way, which is not that easy to me, but this is a step in the right direction. Thanks again for contribution to that.

[Bombadil]

My conscience is relatively clear. I use VIs for instruments I either don't know how to play, or, in the case of drums, can't play in our flat. Drum samples are generally my most-used shortcut. I always program my own drum track, though, possibly, I'll scroll through ADD2 for fills that I wouldn't think of.

I use Melodyne on my voice and on bass guitar. I don't sing as often as I used to, so it needs touching up here and there. On bass, I find I go sharp too often to let it pass, especially when I am playing up the neck. Melodyne gets it to sit perfectly in the mix, which also acts as a bit of a reference point for the guitars.

I almost always play the guitar and bass tracks all the way through.

Loops, exceedingly rare. For example, I recently used a tambourine loop for one of my songs because I tried to record a real one, and it didn't sit in the mix as well as the loop. That is about the only time I can remember using a loop.

EDIT: I don't see using presets as 'cheating.' They're there to be used, and if they suit, fine. Sometimes I'll spice it up with a modulation effect or delay, but that's about it. I am not into sound design, again, it is a question of efficient time expenditure (although if I was 20+ years younger, I'd be intrigued with the process). Most of the stuff I've written has been guitar/piano/organ based, though I want to branch out into scoring to video using more softsynths.

[dellboy]

My question is: Where is your own limit regarding such things as loops, auto arrangements, presequenced synth presets and so forth?

Did we not go through this theme just a few weeks back ?

Why do you include synth presets with loops ?

A piano preset, is a piano preset, is a piano preset. Same goes for guitar, bass, drums etc. You need to split off presets, from presets. If a preset evolves into a long sequence, then is it still a preset ? It just becomes a different word for a "hold the key down" loop.

Lots of popular songs have included cheesy auto accompaniments, Leonard Cohen used them often.

[IncarnateX]

I am talking about presequenced presets as per OP and not just an ordinary piano preset and my example was that I used a preprogrammed arp pattern, so I cannot see why this does not corresponds to a loop.

And, frankly, whether you have discussed this before is no concern of mine. You are free to ignore the thread unless we are talking about abuse of limited cyberspace. No mod has contacted me so far in this regard.

[vurt]

without going to hpc, guilt is a catholic concept which id had more than enough of by the age of 13.
so i gave up guilt and replaced it with drugs. much more fun