KVR Audio

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:49 pm

DJErmac wrote:Avenger is only one example : it has this "spike" trick on its enveloppe that instantly simulates a compressed sound and makes it ready for EDM. Rapid and Thorn also have a very agressive and spikey sound that fits modern EDM. When I think of Zebra 2 I think of smooth and complex sound, but not agressive and spikey, I think of pads and spacey presets, I think of cinematic sounds. I use Zebra 2 when I need those deep sounds. But when I need front massive EDM sounds, I use Avenger.

What exactly is the "Spike Trick"? - If there was a proper description for it, maybe it can be described in similar, widely understood terms like the "Multiband Trick". Again, I think the problems we have start with the lack of proper terminology and/or knowledge of how things are *actually* done, rather than obscure myths.

DJErmac · Post by **DJErmac** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:50 pm

Urs wrote:
DJErmac wrote:First example I've found :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mrkyTgLkS_E
So Avenger somehow knows what the other tracks do and uses a built-in external side chain compressor to duck its sound?

I'm sorry, but let's start discussing this with absolutely plain raw sounds, not mixed, right out of the synth. No Youtube tricks.

This is not a side-chain compressor, this is a simple simulator. It's a basic tremolo. All the internal SQ presets use this. You've never tried Avenger have you ?

DJErmac · Post by **DJErmac** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:55 pm

Urs wrote: What exactly is the "Spike Trick"? - If there was a proper description for it, maybe it can be described in similar, widely understood terms like the "Multiband Trick". Again, I think the problems we have start with the lack of proper terminology and/or knowledge of how things are *actually* done, rather than obscure myths.

The spike function simply adds a massive attack/decay boost to the enveloppe. It simulates a huge spike to the beginning of the enveloppe. This way you can obtain a pluck in half a second for example. Or you can make the sound seem closer in general.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:56 pm

Oh my. Let's just say: I don't believe these examples are untampered with.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:57 pm

DJErmac wrote:
Urs wrote: What exactly is the "Spike Trick"? - If there was a proper description for it, maybe it can be described in similar, widely understood terms like the "Multiband Trick". Again, I think the problems we have start with the lack of proper terminology and/or knowledge of how things are *actually* done, rather than obscure myths.
The spike function simply adds a massive attack/decay boost to the enveloppe. It simulates a huge spike to the beginning of the enveloppe. This way you can obtain a pluck in half a second for example. Or you can make the sound seem closer in general.

What's the difference to setting Sustain lower? As it has been done since 1960ies?

Delta Sign · Post by **Delta Sign** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:59 pm

I believe that's one of the key differences here. People attracted by Zebra want to know how exactly things are done, want to have control over them, people who just want "the latest" sounds most likely don't.
I love Zebra because I like to discover new sounds. However, many people want precisely the opposite, they want to recreate what others already did.

I'm not saying that in any dismissive way, by the way. I totally get the need for instant results, but I think there are simply two very different mindsets at work here that won't really come together.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:00 pm

Well, here's how I see it: You don't want to post any example that *you* record straight out of your favourite synth, but you still want to keep telling us that "Zebra doesn't sound like it".

It's cool. I've become used to that over the decades (funnily enough, it started with a compressed-to-death example of a Virus sound, possibly recorded by the same person as this Youtube video)

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:00 pm

Delta Sign wrote:I can't find any raw Avenger demos that are not produced to hell, any links? Some simple straight up single sounds from the synth would be nice.

This is my Avenger demo for my sound library. No external FX. Just limiting to keep from clipping.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... or-avenger

recursive one · Post by **recursive one** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:01 pm

DJErmac wrote:
Urs wrote: What exactly is the "Spike Trick"? - If there was a proper description for it, maybe it can be described in similar, widely understood terms like the "Multiband Trick". Again, I think the problems we have start with the lack of proper terminology and/or knowledge of how things are *actually* done, rather than obscure myths.
The spike function simply adds a massive attack/decay boost to the enveloppe. It simulates a huge spike to the beginning of the enveloppe. This way you can obtain a pluck in half a second for example. Or you can make the sound seem closer in general.

I think it must be possible to simulate it in Zerba using MSEGs.

Also you may disable "smooth attacks" if you want it more clicky.

Delta Sign · Post by **Delta Sign** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:04 pm

Or recursive modulation of the envelope (That's exactly what's happening in Avenger, if I had to guess). Even without it you can set the envelopes to beyond snappy using the V-Slope mode.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:05 pm

My guess is, what we’re talking about here is preset construction. Zebra’s presets have always been very good at using velocity and other controllers to make for very dynamic presets. They’re brilliant, but they’re not like what the EDM crowd tends to like and use. Want Zebra to sound good for EDM? Disable all dynamic CCs and then throw some analog compressor emulation on after it and slam the hell out of it. Done!

DJErmac · Post by **DJErmac** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:10 pm

Urs wrote:
DJErmac wrote:
Urs wrote: What exactly is the "Spike Trick"? - If there was a proper description for it, maybe it can be described in similar, widely understood terms like the "Multiband Trick". Again, I think the problems we have start with the lack of proper terminology and/or knowledge of how things are *actually* done, rather than obscure myths.
The spike function simply adds a massive attack/decay boost to the enveloppe. It simulates a huge spike to the beginning of the enveloppe. This way you can obtain a pluck in half a second for example. Or you can make the sound seem closer in general.
What's the difference to setting Sustain lower? As it has been done since 1960ies?

Believe me, when you use it, you get it.

Let's say you really want the answer and are not trying to prove they've added a button that serves no purpose, here it is : it's a spike that's been calculated so it serves the enveloppe ideally. The sound immediatly sounds more massive. If you simply lower the sustain on a classic ADSR enveloppe, you get a simple click-like spike, not this attack boost.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:10 pm

And here's my Zebra 2 library, again, no external FX.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... or-zebra-2

FTR, both Avenger and Zebra 2 are in a dead tie for my 5th best selling libraries. My guess is everybody who bought my Zebra 2 library when it came out a few years ago also bought my Avenger library when it came out more recently. Probably because they are similar to each other.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:18 pm

DJErmac wrote:Believe me, when you use it, you get it.

Let's say you really want the answer and are not trying to prove they've added a button that serves no purpose, here it is : it's a spike that's been calculated so it serves the enveloppe ideally. The sound immediatly sounds more massive. If you simply lower the sustain on a classic ADSR enveloppe, you get a simple click-like spike, not this attack boost.

But there's no difference if you boost the envelope depth the same way as you lower Sustain?

I use something similar all the time. I assign a second envelope with a short Attack/Decay time and adjust to taste. I didn't know there was a word for it in EDM-lingo.

Again, I'm sure it's all just about wanting things one particular way (the way you're used to?), not about the possibilities of the tool itself.

anomandaris1 · Post by **anomandaris1** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Many preset banks for Serum are overprocessed with the internal fx and the volume is very loud . I can see how traditionalists will say that this is not the right way to use a synth, because the different delay and reverb settings from several instances of the plugin probably will sound weird together and the loud volume of the preset will make it sound "better" than identical sound made with another synth.

There is a walkthrough for one of the Avenger expansions online showcasing the sound directly from the synth:

Your opinion about Zebra 2