Your opinion about Zebra 2

[walker123]

i think it has a definite "sound" which can be characterized as "soft" in my opinion.

[Julien Unison]

My input on what is causing a sort of argument here :

I think you can obtain that "EDM spikey sound" with every virtual synths you own.

Take for example Zebra, or Legend, or Repro, and put a multiband compressor after it, and tweek the multiband to make it very agressive.
(for that I use Xfer OTT that is perfect for that function)

Synths like Avenger and Rapid have this kind of tool integrated and activated on almost every presets in them.

But with OTT (just an example, but try it, it's free and very fast to tweek) you can transform every simple lead sound into the most agressive and stadium-like spikey EDM lead. It works also on pads, plucks etc....... (I remember the first time I discovered a little "magic" tool to do that, it was a very long time ago, and it was Final Master from Yamaha, that was able to do almost exactly the same as Xfer OTT and the OTT preset in Ableton live)

Simple as that. So let's say Avenger integrates in itself tools that satisfy lazy people that don't want to proceed the classic way to produce music (sound + fx + mixing + mastering).

I have Avenger and Zebra 2.8 (and Dark Zebra too), and I adore both and I'm totally able to create the most modern EDM sounds with both if I want to (and to do it very quickly with both).

For that, you just have to know how to master sounds and music.

And of course, the obvious advantage to know how to do it, is that you can process any sound from any sources : real drums, field recording, Kontakt banks, trap drumkits, vintage hardware synths and rhythm boxes, orchestra recordings, voices etc... Everything.

[voidhead23]

Thing is, if people are too ignorant to understand their tools, it won't either. If people just copy some workflow they got from a Youtube video or some random forum, and they don't even know what they're doing, but it's some kind of magic trick and "everyone does it that way". OMG. I'm not making synthesizers for these people. I'm actually not even interested in their input. They're copy cats, not experts.

Well, i guess i better stop using Zebra and Hive, then...

Been following this growing thread with an equally growing sense of dismay. A lot of subjective relationships to instruments touted as fact, and getting defensive about products that need no defending. And a lot of alienating comments.

Zebra's great and can do anything you want it to. It doesn't gel with everyone (because it's an INSTRUMENT...this is subjective. Not everyone plays a Les Paul...). Some synths are great at specific functions (VA, FM, additive, subtractive, wavetable, granular, etc.) and others are pretty good at everything or a lot of different things. ANY synth can do ANY feeling, emotion, or timeframe (i can make vintage sounds with Serum and futuristic ones with Repro) and that should be the point, again, in my opinion, since a lot of us are making music with these instruments. i don't make EDM. i don't care when Zebra3 comes out because there's nothing missing from Zebra2.

But i also have to look up random forums and Youtube videos to figure things out on my synths because i spent the bigger part of my life learning a different instrument. i just like synth sounds, and i like the way THIS synth sounds. A lot.

[DJErmac]

So let's say Avenger integrates in itself tools that satisfy lazy people that don't want to proceed the classic way to produce music (sound + fx + mixing + mastering).

Sorry, but insulting people who are not satisfied about the result they get from Zebra 2 when trying to get sharp EDM sound isn't very constructive. I've been producing since 1991, am not lazy, and am still saying I can't get sounds as sharp from Zebra 2 as I can get from Avenger or Rapid or Thorn. If you can get what you want from Zebra 2, then good for you, keep on using it and be happy with it, but please assume some people might think differently before saying they're simply lazy.

[Urs]

Thing is, if people are too ignorant to understand their tools, it won't either. If people just copy some workflow they got from a Youtube video or some random forum, and they don't even know what they're doing, but it's some kind of magic trick and "everyone does it that way". OMG. I'm not making synthesizers for these people. I'm actually not even interested in their input. They're copy cats, not experts.

Well, i guess i better stop using Zebra and Hive, then...

Been following this growing thread with an equally growing sense of dismay. A lot of subjective relationships to instruments touted as fact, and getting defensive about products that need no defending. And a lot of alienating comments.

Obviously, I'm talking about people who say "Zebra can't do this" when they have no clue what it is they're doing. I'm sick of hearing arguments about "magic sauce" in this or that, simply because the people using these terms, indeed, have no idea what they're talking about, yet they are highly opinionated and claim to know more. This does not relate to any type of music in particular. I see it a lot in the context of EDM, but it's also as present with people talking about "that analogue sound" whatsoever. People seem to just repeat what somebody else put out there, without any fundamental truth backing it up.

I'd be more than happy to listen to a statement like "if you add a multiband compressor you can lower VCA Sustain and raise the compressor's input gain to achieve a harder attack which is sought after". Sure, this kind of argument needs a little insight in things, a bare minimum. But it also doesn't sound as spectacular and condescending as "Meh" or "Zebra simply can't do this". It requires reflection. The lack of this kind of reflection paired with the drive to broadcast opinion is pretty much what's wrong with this world. IMHO.

[Delta Sign]

Dunning and Kruger had something to say about that, I believe

[DJErmac]

We're talking sound, music, art... can we really say some are "qualified" to say what's wrong or right in sound ? We're simply exchanging opinions, perceptions here I believe. I think there is a long way before anybody can prove a sound is sharp or not.

[Urs]

We're talking sound, music, art... can we really say some are "qualified" to say what's wrong or right in sound ? We're simply exchanging opinions, perceptions here I believe. I think there is a long way before anybody can prove a sound is sharp or not.

But you can certainly assert the difference between those two statements:

"Zebra can't do these sounds".

"I can't get these sounds out of Zebra".

Which one would you say is the truth? Which one would you say is the common sense of civilised argumentation rather than just pure agitation?

[Urs]

Hey, I'm even fine with a statement like "I couldn't be arsed to dial such a sound into Zebra, it's too complicated. I prefer to use specialized tools which get me there quicker". Fair enough, no offense.

But then, some people rather can't be arsed to behave civilised. They need to condescend. Glorious.

[wagtunes]

Hey, I'm even fine with a statement like "I couldn't be arsed to dial such a sound into Zebra, it's too complicated. I prefer to use specialized tools which get me there quicker". Fair enough, no offense.

But then, some people rather can't be arsed to behave civilised. They need to condescend. Glorious.

Urs, I'm sure you've found over the brief time you've been on this planet that the human race in general can't be arsed to do much of anything. That's why we have instant coffee, microwave meals and now, cars that drive themselves.

In general, we're a lazy race.

[DJErmac]

We're talking sound, music, art... can we really say some are "qualified" to say what's wrong or right in sound ? We're simply exchanging opinions, perceptions here I believe. I think there is a long way before anybody can prove a sound is sharp or not.

But you can certainly assert the difference between those two statements:

"Zebra can't do these sounds".

"I can't get these sounds out of Zebra".

Which one would you say is the truth? Which one would you say is the common sense of civilised argumentation rather than just pure agitation?

For sure, only the second one can be considered as true unless you have countless free hours to prove your theory if asked, of course.

[Urs]

For sure, only the second one can be considered as true unless you have countless free hours to prove your theory if asked, of course.

I don't know what you mean.

The second one has the ultimate advantage that it does not generalize. It does not even claim any truth. It allows you "not to be wrong".

[recursive one]

For sure, only the second one can be considered as true unless you have countless free hours to prove your theory if asked, of course.

I don't know what you mean.

He means the Russell teapot argument.

If you say "Zebra can't do sound supersaws sounding like Avenger" it's a falsifiable claim, this statement can be disproven by presenting A/B examples where Zebra would sound exactly like Avenger.
When you say Zebra "can do supersaws sounding like Avenger" it's unfalsifiable because whenever someone says that it can't no matter what they have tried you can always say "try harder" (I'm not saying this is what you actually do but sometimes it looks like that)

Ofc, you can insert any kind of sound here instead of Avenger's supersaw. And overall the case is made even worse by that there are no objective sound quality standards for different kinds of sounds, but when someone say "I don't like how supersaws sound in Zebra I prefer Avenger for that" you can't request them to back their statements by techncial arguments because people who use synths are not supposed to know the tech behind them as deep as the developers.

And yes, the Delta Sign supersaw example sounded nowhere near the DJErmac example and the difference was not in the amount/type of compression or envelope shapes, to me it sounded like Avenger has subtantially different unison/detuning algorhytms giving more consistent base sound, perhaps with less phase cancellation or something. I don't have Avenger so I don't know what may be actually going on in that patch.

An yes, that's really the last time, sorry

[Urs]

Well, IIRC the claim wasn't "Zebra doesn't sound like Avenger". The claim was "Zebra can't do EDM sounds", "Zebra sounds too weak", blah blah. Then, Avenger was brought up as an example of something that can, and to me, I'm sorry, it turns out it's not about synthesis and all about production.

Of course you can then say "as an artist, I don't care about technicalities, I just want things to work". To which I will reply "ok, then you don't need our tools. Our tools are designed for people who care".

[Julien Unison]

But you can certainly assert the difference between those two statements:

"Zebra can't do these sounds".

"I can't get these sounds out of Zebra".

Which one would you say is the truth? Which one would you say is the common sense of civilised argumentation rather than just pure agitation?

Exactly