What makes a synth suitable for "electronic dance music"?

[anomandaris1]

I really don't understand how only two synths (Serum and Spire) are called out as some god-given Psytrance must-haves.

But, I have to say that the sound of Psytrance and the sound of typical commercial 'EDM' really have completely different set of sounds. There will be middle ground where certain sounds are interchangeable, but overall, these genres are very different in their sonic 'blueprint'.

There was some "commercial psytrance" released in last few years by big labels that is something between various substyles like full-on/ethnic/acid trance and "hands-up big leads house/trance". Even some hardstyle guys tried mixing their stuff with more "psy" sounds.

[chk071]

But, I have to say that the sound of Psytrance and the sound of typical commercial 'EDM' really have completely different set of sounds. There will be middle ground where certain sounds are interchangeable, but overall, these genres are very different in their sonic 'blueprint'.

Maybe. There's a lot of overlap these days though. You'll especially find a lot of typical dubstep sounds in other genres as well.

[Synthman2000]

Processing, as in eq and effects does play a fairly big part in perceived quality. You can make a synth that is.. so so.. in fidelity sound better, or at least not even worse.. with external processing and effects than its built in.. usually. It is not the be all and end all, get things right as close to source to ensure best quality end result. (If that means using a "better" synth then best to do so)

High sample rate is something to investigate when you have processing power enough. As these tracks are 100+ channels, maybe even 200+ it is a lot going on to work at 24/96. Maybe today the top end CPU's will do it.

I am usually at 75pct or so CPU when making a mix of 70-120 tracks of all types on an old i7.

What I am interested to know is once oscillator/s has calculated its waveform what is the quality of the maths, data stream, audio files it outputs ?

And also how does that translate/convert to a DAW 24 bit .wav output.

I know little about synth coding so would like to know what level of quality in audio terms the maths can represent through an entire synth.

Is it a 32/64 bit PCM stream of data ? And is this maintained throughout every module into the next and so on through the synth architecture ? I ask because some synths sound like they have an MP3 codec somewhere in there. Also I wonder if CPU optimization is akin to perceptual encoding/data reduction ? That would explain much.

Processes like bandwidth limiting, any filtering type will all have an effect on the sound generated. Maybe some developers are just not quite as competent at this as others.

There is a difference in fidelity that is very obvious for me to hear.

[himalaya]

I didn't mean that but for what I know many psy producers, especially of the newer generation, indeed use these two synths a lot, especially Serum.

In the past it was a Nord Lead 1, Sh101, Virus, and the likes...although some used the Roland V-Synth as well when it appeared mainly for those vocal-formant twisted leads...

[Grizzellda]

They are ignoring me!

But see, now I know, that they know, that they are ignoring me!

FWIW, regarding your question whether i meant you with my 2nd last post, i don't, don't worry. Unless you are into modular fart sounds, then, my apologies.

Nice to hear!

As for modular fart sounds, I'll think about it.

[himalaya]

But, I have to say that the sound of Psytrance and the sound of typical commercial 'EDM' really have completely different set of sounds. There will be middle ground where certain sounds are interchangeable, but overall, these genres are very different in their sonic 'blueprint'.

Maybe. There's a lot of overlap these days though. You'll especially find a lot of typical dubstep sounds in other genres as well.

Can you provide some Psytrance examples that use those dubstep sounds? I assume you mean those 'wavetable' vocal wobbles which characterise contemporary Dubstep, right?

[vurt]

But, I have to say that the sound of Psytrance and the sound of typical commercial 'EDM' really have completely different set of sounds. There will be middle ground where certain sounds are interchangeable, but overall, these genres are very different in their sonic 'blueprint'.

Well, the problem is that I don't listen to "typical commercial EDM" at all and I don't know what sounds they are using. Wobbles, supersaws, I guess, because most synths have such presets ... My confrot zome is psytrance and psychill mostly, I do listen to some old trance and progressive house stuff every now and then but not the newer reincarnations of these.

I use the word EDM in broadest possible sense. Anyway I think the synths are the same to a great extent, it's the production techniques and sound design what differs, and differs greatly.

I really don't understand how only two synths (Serum and Spire) are called out as some god-given Psytrance must-haves.

I didn't mean that but for what I know many psy producers, especially of the newer generation, indeed use these two synths a lot, especially Serum.

sorry, on phone so editing is a pain, but im replying to the last part only...

the newer generation is probably no different than the generation that followed hendrix, they see their idols using product x, and think if they use the same products they'll sound the same.
then over time it becomes an essential, the difference with the guitar analogy is the availability, whereas it was a little out of most beginners pocket to go straight to a fender

being able to use the exact same presets as well must be a buzz for the new beginner, i can certainly see the attraction there

[chk071]

But, I have to say that the sound of Psytrance and the sound of typical commercial 'EDM' really have completely different set of sounds. There will be middle ground where certain sounds are interchangeable, but overall, these genres are very different in their sonic 'blueprint'.

Maybe. There's a lot of overlap these days though. You'll especially find a lot of typical dubstep sounds in other genres as well.

Can you provide some Psytrance examples that use those dubstep sounds? I assume you mean those 'wavetable' vocal wobbles which characterise contemporary Dubstep, right?

I rather meant overlap between different styles under the "umbrella term" EDM. You hear a lot of dubstep wub wub in modern Trance, for example.

[whyterabbyt]

They are ignoring me!

But see, now I know, that they know, that they are ignoring me!

FWIW, regarding your question whether i meant you with my 2nd last post, i don't, don't worry. Unless you are into modular fart sounds, then, my apologies.

Nice to hear!

As for modular fart sounds, I'll think about it.

Well, you dont have to, you could just memorise the ''Ten Handy Ways to Deflect Your Childish Envy of Other People's Gear" appendix of 'EDM Presets for Dummies' instead.

[anomandaris1]

Can you provide some Psytrance examples that use those dubstep sounds? I assume you mean those 'wavetable' vocal wobbles which characterise contemporary Dubstep, right?

Infected mushroom have done some half dubstep/half whatever their trance genre is songs. Wubs etc can be heard in some psy or commercial trance as an effect (like end of the bar or at the beginning of new section), I can't think of any trance/dubstep songs, maybe there are some (I don't really listen to trance or psy-trance, outside of artists like Juno Reactor and old Astral Projection).

[whyterabbyt]

What I am interested to know is once oscillator/s has calculated its waveform what is the quality of the maths, data stream, audio files it outputs ?

The 'quality' of maths or data as such is really just mathematical accuracy, and the point at which that accuracy is determined is in the calculations.

Sample rate determines how many calculations occur per second. Sample word-size (aka bit depth) determines the accuracy of the calculation. The choice of algorithm determines how 'accurately' those calculations come to the desired result.

And also how does that translate/convert to a DAW 24 bit .wav output.

That depends on what it was before. Generally VST audio processing probably gets done as 32-bit or 64-bit floating point calculations, probably stored as 32-bit track data, and probably converted down to 24-bit fixed point data only when it gets sent to the soundcard. But none of these things are certain, and its entirely possible for something to be calculated with less accuracy than 24-bit fixed point rather than more.

Is it a 32/64 bit PCM stream of data ? And is this maintained throughout every module into the next and so on through the synth architecture ?

The word size is probably going to be maintained, but individual modules could be oversampled at different rates. Oversampling is running the calculations faster than the base sample rate.

Also I wonder if CPU optimization is akin to perceptual encoding/data reduction ?

No, its generally either a simplification of the algorithm, or ways of making the efficiency of the running of the algorithm better.

[chk071]

They are ignoring me!

But see, now I know, that they know, that they are ignoring me!

FWIW, regarding your question whether i meant you with my 2nd last post, i don't, don't worry. Unless you are into modular fart sounds, then, my apologies.

Nice to hear!

As for modular fart sounds, I'll think about it.

Well, you dont have to, you could just memorise the ''Ten Handy Ways to Deflect Your Childish Envy of Other People's Gear" appendix of 'EDM Presets for Dummies' instead.

Envy. On modular gear. By the EDM crowd. Well, that makes sense.

[Delta Sign]

I think the problem is with the original question itself.

Define suitable.

I actually think you may have a point here. Probably I'm imagining things and overstate the importance of "sound character". Maybe I'm not getting many relevant responses becuase the question actually doesn't have a relevant response

Anyway, when I'm listening to my favourite tracks and the sounds they are using, I'm not actually sure Synth1 would easily cut it.

Well you see, and again, you've got basically two things that make up EDM.

1. The beat and overall vibe.

2. The sounds.

Which is more important? Think about it. You can replace 2 with just about anything. But if you take 1 away, it's absolutely no longer EDM.

I may not be a musical Einstein but I'm smart enough to have figured out over the course of these many years that the driving force behind EDM is kick, 2, 3, 4.

Take that away and it doesn't matter what kind of sounds you're using.

I mean seriously, is it an absolute MUST that you have a supersaw in an EDM track? No one has ever made a good EDM track without a supersaw? I would find that very hard to believe.

Supersaw is just an exemplary sound evrybody knows.

Actually the kind of music I'm interested the most and try to make myself is rather something like this. I guess such music is not what you perosnally can enjoy, but you will probably agree that the sounds do matter here (yes, it does have some supersaws, among tons of the other sounds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DY6av9zPNg

Or this, that's an old track it was made before Spire and Serum even appeared (2004 I think)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thi2FXdFkfM
And it's 2018 reincarnation. Well, its does show that copy/paste problem, the artist is using the same samples and sounds over more than a decade, but it's the epitome of fatness and punch. Do that with your Synth1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD4NmnlziRA

My quick ~15 minute take on this kind of style using Synth1. I made everything from scratch from init patches (including downloading and installing Synth1 ), excluding the 3 drum sounds, which are samples I made earlier.
I obviously used external effects and "production" here, because we can't compare a raw synth to a full production (Which I think is one of the other big things regarding this whole topic).
I mostly used Live's effects, most of which could probably even replaced by Synth1's internal effects, to be honest.

https://soundcloud.com/deltasign/synth1-psy

This is obviously not really all that good, but I made this super quickly and it could be a lot better with some actual effort. Yes, I think most of the sounds from those tracks could be made with Synth1, except the ones that are simply not possible because they need some feature that Synth1 simply doesn't have.

Edit: I should also clarify, I have no real idea about this kind of music, or any "EDM", so someone with more experience in that area probably could have done a lot better in maybe even a shorter time.

[recursive one]

the newer generation is probably no different than the generation that followed hendrix, they see their idols using product x, and think if they use the same products they'll sound the same.

That "what do the pros use" thing is not always "if I find out what tools the big guys are using I'll immediately become as good as them". It may also be "these tools are proven to give good results so I'll focus on learning them isntead of trying out what else is available".

This may also be answer to "what's so special about these synths" and this also may conribute into the unification of the gear and the sounds used in a specific genre and the overall sameness of the music but that's another story.

[whyterabbyt]

Envy. On modular gear. By the EDM crowd. Well, that makes sense.

Well, the appendix is appropriately unimaginative and generic...