Bitwig vs Logic

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THE INTRANCER
KVRian
556 posts since 30 Dec, 2014

Post Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:40 pm

Zexila wrote:
THE INTRANCER wrote:Trying to do that in Bitwig Studio would be a nightmare to manage in comparison, even if it does support folder tracks.
I don't know if you are aware (I wasn't till recently), there's neat thing with group tracks where you can access every group in full arrangement view, not just collapsing folders like you would do in Cubase/Logic X, which IMO gives whole organization thing another level of usefulness suddenly, especially if you start nesting groups in groups and so on.
I don't know about Logic's limitations of using folders, but I do know that Studio One can nest folders within folders like you've shown in Bitwig. The main point I was hinting at was really more about viewing tracks in a more immediate way than using folder tracks, as whilst helpful, to go into the deep nesting route, is by it's very nature, a pretty clunky system that you can get lost in if you go mad with it. With a slider where tracks can scale to minimal levels on the fly, you can do more with less clicks and effort in one stroke.

I don't know if Logic can minimise the arrangement of tracks to this level, I know Bitwig Studio can't.

Image
THE INTRANCER-Digital 2D & 3D GUI / Music Artist - Orchestral Trance - Ambient - Film Scores | Soundcloud 27 | Soundclick 16 | Producing Music For 25+Years & Sound Monitoring FOH at UK Stadium/Festivals for Carl Cox, FatBoy Slim ect

Zexila
KVRAF
3090 posts since 18 Mar, 2008

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:20 pm

THE INTRANCER wrote:I don't know if Logic can minimise the arrangement of tracks to this level, I know Bitwig Studio can't.

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Logic/Cubase can, Bitwig can't fit 100 tracks on 1080p at least, more like 30-ish.

Don't know about S1, but both Cubase/Logic can't open group tracks in full arrangement view, either way I would need to zoom in every section, this is like instant zoom in, just switch to another group.

Also I'm not doing majority of editing in arrangement view, I saw even worst PT sessions when guys are scrolling like mad trough 100+ track projects, because all the editing they do is in arrangement view, I worked like that in Logic too, but with zooming is way nicer than just scrolling endlessly, you go from tiny to large in few clicks... still would like to go tiny like that in Bitwig, even if it's essentially just the eye candy and nice overview of whole project, most things I would still do in separate views.
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

THE INTRANCER
KVRian
556 posts since 30 Dec, 2014

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:10 pm

Zexila wrote:
Logic/Cubase can, Bitwig can't fit 100 tracks on 1080p at least, more like 30-ish.

Don't know about S1, but both Cubase/Logic can't open group tracks in full arrangement view, either way I would need to zoom in every section, this is like instant zoom in, just switch to another group.

Also I'm not doing majority of editing in arrangement view, I saw even worst PT sessions when guys are scrolling like mad trough 100+ track projects, because all the editing they do is in arrangement view, I worked like that in Logic too, but with zooming is way nicer than just scrolling endlessly, you go from tiny to large in few clicks... still would like to go tiny like that in Bitwig, even if it's essentially just the eye candy and nice overview of whole project, most things I would still do in separate views.
Studio One has : Minimal, Overview, Tiny, Small, Normal, Medium, Large, X-Large, preset height settings for the tracks to select from, from a popup window, next to the track slider widget. There are also various zoom in/out options in combination with the keys and mouse buttons/wheel. You can also set up your own macro keys and set the level of adjustment you want for the zooming level. I've not tested SO4 for this yet, but in SO3, you can't open more than one Folder track at any one time, but there may be a way to do this vie the scripting feature Studio One has.
THE INTRANCER-Digital 2D & 3D GUI / Music Artist - Orchestral Trance - Ambient - Film Scores | Soundcloud 27 | Soundclick 16 | Producing Music For 25+Years & Sound Monitoring FOH at UK Stadium/Festivals for Carl Cox, FatBoy Slim ect

Zexila
KVRAF
3090 posts since 18 Mar, 2008

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:30 am

Thanks for taking time and sharing this info. :hug:

You addressed some really valid stuff overall, I too find resource usage of Bitwig quite high and it spikes more than often, there's plenty of room for improvement there. :tu:
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

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pdxindy
KVRAF
13888 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:34 am

Zexila wrote:Thanks for taking time and sharing this info. :hug:

You addressed some really valid stuff overall, I too find resource usage of Bitwig quite high and it spikes more than often, there's plenty of room for improvement there. :tu:
Bitwig is working on improving performance... by offloading the GUI to the GPU which will reduce CPU use and make it steadier

liquidsound
KVRAF
2931 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:04 am

I use Logic and Live (and other DAW as well)
I demoed BW and personally I can’t stand the UI (I’m probably in the minority here) and the workflow since I’m a long time Live user.
Regarding the BW modulation power (well deserved claims) I can say that in my case I’m quite happy with the tremendous power of M4L and its user library available even though BW excel in seamless integration (for now...) :pray: 8)
MuLab.Ableton.Diva.Zebra.Repro-1.Dune2.The Legend.ArcSyn.Spire.TAL

Zexila
KVRAF
3090 posts since 18 Mar, 2008

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:21 am

pdxindy wrote:
Zexila wrote:Thanks for taking time and sharing this info. :hug:

You addressed some really valid stuff overall, I too find resource usage of Bitwig quite high and it spikes more than often, there's plenty of room for improvement there. :tu:
Bitwig is working on improving performance... by offloading the GUI to the GPU which will reduce CPU use and make it steadier
Glad to hear that. :party:
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

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pdxindy
KVRAF
13888 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:06 am

liquidsound wrote:I use Logic and Live (and other DAW as well)
I demoed BW and personally I can’t stand the UI (I’m probably in the minority here) and the workflow since I’m a long time Live user.
Regarding the BW modulation power (well deserved claims) I can say that in my case I’m quite happy with the tremendous power of M4L and its user library available even though BW excel in seamless integration (for now...) :pray: 8)
Yeah, M4L is amazingly powerful... Not a particularly good workflow however.

For example, add 3 LFO's and 2 Env's and between them all modulate a dozen parameters on a Live synth (or VST). Now try to have an overview of what is going on!

In Bitwig, you add the 3 LFO's and 2 Env's and modulate a bunch of parameters on say the Phase-4 synth, clicking on the synth device header will show you all the modulators and all the targets and the values can be edited right there and targets added or deleted.

Then there are the Device and Preset pages where you can make macros controlling any of the synth parameters, any of the parameters of the added modulators or any nested FX devices. Then it is so easy to save that as a preset.

So yeah, the power of Live with M4L is amazing and exceeds what Bitwig can do (except it does not do polyphonic modulation like Bitwig does) but the workflow of the Bitwig modulation system is far far better than Live. I find it painful to use Live at this point. (still own it)

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antic604
KVRian
1226 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:28 pm

pdxindy wrote:Yeah, M4L is amazingly powerful... Not a particularly good workflow however.

For example, add 3 LFO's and 2 Env's and between them all modulate a dozen parameters on a Live synth (or VST). Now try to have an overview of what is going on!
The visual clutter is the least of my problems with it:
- Live's LFO takes 2-3x more CPU than Bitwig's,
- when Live's LFO is running (say moving the parameter +/-20% around current level) you can't move the knob or automate the parameter anymore, because LFO takes complete control,
- if you scroll the device chain, the LFO displays will lag behind (detach from) the device,

But there are pros, as well: you can map an LFO to anywhere in the project, without resorting to tricks with DC Offset and Audio Rate mod. That's about it, though :)
Live 10 // Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4
Music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
2210 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:43 am

It‘s quite embarrassing that Bitwig does not work with AU plugins. I do not have the nerve to reinstall all redundant VST plugins again which I deleted to save disc space... So I stay with Logic and will perhaps have a lok at Ableton Live (which has not this restrictions). Black Friday is coming...

Music was my first love...
Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

Zexila
KVRAF
3090 posts since 18 Mar, 2008

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:51 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:43 am
So I stay with Logic and will perhaps have a lok at Ableton Live (which has not this restrictions). Black Friday is coming...
If you decide to pull the trigger on Live, I can transfer you mine Lite licence so you can upgrade cheaper, drop me PM when you decide. :tu:
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
2210 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:59 am

Zexila wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:51 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:43 am
So I stay with Logic and will perhaps have a lok at Ableton Live (which has not this restrictions). Black Friday is coming...
If you decide to pull the trigger on Live, I can transfer you mine Lite licence so you can upgrade cheaper, drop me PM when you decide. :tu:
Thanks, from what reason ever I already have a Lite licence (perhaps a Focusrite promo, just forgot it). Currently I play around with it a bit and it looks promising...

Music was my first love...
Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

bbreakz
KVRist
141 posts since 28 Jul, 2005

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:38 am

Do any of you who have used Ableton and Bitwig for a decent amount of time notice the sub bass in Bitwig doesn't push as deep as when working with Ableton? Operator in Ableton feels much deeper/subbier than when I use any* bass synth in Bitwig. I've been a/bing for quite a while now. I own both.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6152 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:43 am

I used to use logic and converted to live mainly some years back. I got too used to Abletons workflow that I couldn’t really go back to logic. The session view was the big thing and how easy it was for controllers to integrate with it.

When bitwig came out though I switched to it and though I’ve had had some issues or wishes over the years, they have pretty much addressed everything so far that I’ve wanted. There was already enough to switch years ago and now it is extremely well thought out. There are just so many reasons I could not go back to live. People talk about the modulation a lot but what people don’t often mention is how everything is relative with the assignments, so you can always adjust a target parameter that has a modulation or macro assigned to it, unlike live where the target parameter of a macro or m4l device becomes unchangeable. Then there is mpe and the way bitwig handle multi-output vsts, the hardware control mapping (how great is it that you can leave gaps in the parameter order for hardware!), the excellent browser (see all files within the sub directories of a directory at once, so useful), return track clips, flexible routing devices, midi can be received by effects on the same track as an instrument receives midi, hybrid audio/midi tracks, and so on.

The midi editing could use some work, or some options for different behaviours, and they will improve performance due to the gpu stuff, but overall it’s pretty great. But if you are doing scoring or really complex projects, the big boys like logic and Cubase will still have essential tools for that, but I think bitwig is top of the pile for creativity in daws.
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pdxindy
KVRAF
13888 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Bitwig vs Logic

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:57 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:43 am
People talk about the modulation a lot but what people don’t often mention is how everything is relative with the assignments, so you can always adjust a target parameter that has a modulation or macro assigned to it, unlike live where the target parameter of a macro or m4l device becomes unchangeable. Then there is mpe and the way bitwig handle multi-output vsts, the hardware control mapping (how great is it that you can leave gaps in the parameter order for hardware!), the excellent browser (see all files within the sub directories of a directory at once, so useful), return track clips, flexible routing devices, midi can be received by effects on the same track as an instrument receives midi, hybrid audio/midi tracks, and so on.
Yeah, the way Live locks the parameter that is being modulated was annoying. I'm starting to forget about using Live cause it has been a while now. There are many things I like significantly better in Bitwig. And the Devs are just going to the places that interest me and Ableton isn't. I like that Bitwig folks are making Bitwig good for hardware including modular for example.

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