Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
User avatar
IncarnateX
KVRAF
3198 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:00 pm

I think you make it harder than it has to be, but I have seen such problems before, when people thinks chords in serials and not tonal context, e.g. there would be no logical reason to consider a chord consisting of A, C and F a Am chord #5 in C major where it simply is an inversion of the subdominant, namely an F chord.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
15386 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:01 pm

someone called simon wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:46 pm
googled CPP and found 38 possible definitions on a wikipedia disambiguation page,
I spelled it out in this thread: common practice period. or, common practice paradigm.
Also, and I don't mind being slapped on the hand here, I probably may have called the chord E G C "Em#5" in some circumstances. Like in the guitar part in the Rolling Stone's 'hot stuff', where there's an Em chord, but B is hammered on to a C on the 4th beat... calling it a C chord doesn't sound right to me,
Too bad. Why is that? Does it have to have C in the bass, are you just unaccustomed to inversions?

E G C is C major first inversion. Full_stop.
C is_not a sharp 5 from E. Count 'em: E F G A B C; 1 2 3 4 5 6.
I already explained it, and it probably cannot be explained a lot better.
Augmented fifth is a derivative of an augmented triad: E G# B#. E G C is C major; this is not an opinion, this is a fact. And it's a simple, knowable on the very surface of it fact.

NB: Occam's Razor*: the fewest assumptions needed to support your contention, probably makes more sense. This is a perfect example of that working. Your example does not change what the thing clearly is.
Your example is quite simple, an E minor turning into a C/E (C, E bass). SIMPLE. (*: or Keep It Simple, Stupid)
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
IncarnateX
KVRAF
3198 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:03 pm

excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:57 pm
IncarnateX wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:10 pm
excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:26 pm

I have to get lost, because you can't read? You are really something...
Can't read? On which planet would that be, your chords don't exist on this one. Kid, you have shit your pants in public. Your face will not be saved by rubbing it further in it.
You clearly have some trouble with reading, yes; my comment was deliberately not addressed to you, but to member jancivil. Address your posts correctly, please.
dude, this ^^^^ is to say that I agree with Jan no matter who you addressed. You are in the wrong here, just accept it and learn from it, instead of going ad hominem.

someone called simon
KVRist
461 posts since 24 Jul, 2008 from Quake central, New Zealand

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:19 pm

jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:01 pm

Too bad. Why is that? Does it have to have C in the bass, are you just unaccustomed to inversions?

E G C is C major first inversion. Full_stop.
C is_not a sharp 5 from E. Count 'em: E F G A B C; 1 2 3 4 5 6.
I already explained it, and it probably cannot be explained a lot better.
Augmented fifth is a derivative of an augmented triad: E G# B#. E G C is C major; this is not an opinion, this is a fact. And it's a simple, knowable on the very surface of it fact.
Alright. It comes from being unschooled, learning that an augmented chord has an #5, then thinking that the minor version of the chord would be called the same thing. I can see how that is an error from the viewpoint of the larger framework, nevertheless an intuitive one from my perspective.
I used to be Zoing, now I am not.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
15386 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:21 pm

No one has trouble reading but you, "excuse". Let's recap: you asserted a couple of comparatively exotic chord names which I corrected.

"E-G-A-C could be perceived as an Em sus4 #5 chord."
E G C is your basic triad, which you tortured to death making it more complicated than_it_is, an E minor augmented fifth. We did get one guy who had a perceptual problem, which was a bit of a surprise, but it's absurd. Making matters worse, we see a 'sus4' where there is the third a bloody sus4 replaces by_definition.
This is incompetent.

So where do you get this reading comprehension remark the f**k FROM? I fully know what intervals you want, I'm just pointing out how it isn't workable. You're a relative noob who is trying to show off on the internet by getting fancy. It's a stupid look! People that have expertise all see it.

"As G-A-C-E could be perceived as a G 6/9 sus 4 chord. Especially when the root note is about an octave lower."
And to recap this, it's the same basic issue: We have two simple names available, which the OP already knows. You're simply muddying the waters, to no use to anybody. You have several assumptions for no good reason needed to get to this uber-fancy-looking construction. Not one cutesy jazzbo-looking addition, not two, but three. This word you keep using, perceived. No, the ear is the perceiving mechanism and it's not going to do all this work and assuming to make these stupid notions work. You are showing me, and I say me since you decided to get shirty with me about it, that you don't use the things, you are not working from real life experience, you're a guy collecting information that looks smart for a smart social media look.

That I'm reiterating any of what I wrote clearly means YOU have a definite problem either of understanding the english language, or more likely are obstinate, sticking to your guns and being obtuse. Either way, you're just being totally stupid.

It is beyond stupid to act like I missed something, if you read the other things I went into here. I really have no words for how stupid this kind of discourse is, other than to point to the rational wiki, or any other documentation of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. You're the signal example of the problem. You believe you're smarter than everyone else, in a top-down egoistic assessment which is entirely mistaken and this has occluded you from learning the lesson.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
15386 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:25 pm

as to 'excuse me please', blocked, there is no point in ever reading someone this arrogant and this fallacious all at once in such dense concentration

someone called simon wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:19 pm
jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:01 pm

Too bad. Why is that? Does it have to have C in the bass, are you just unaccustomed to inversions?

E G C is C major first inversion. Full_stop.
C is_not a sharp 5 from E. Count 'em: E F G A B C; 1 2 3 4 5 6.
I already explained it, and it probably cannot be explained a lot better.
Augmented fifth is a derivative of an augmented triad: E G# B#. E G C is C major; this is not an opinion, this is a fact. And it's a simple, knowable on the very surface of it fact.
Alright. It comes from being unschooled, learning that an augmented chord has an #5, then thinking that the minor version of the chord would be called the same thing. I can see how that is an error from the viewpoint of the larger framework, nevertheless an intuitive one from my perspective.
It's an error you made from an assumption and the assumption came from a lack of information.
You intuited a sixth in a normal sounding chord into an augmented fifth? Did you think that before someone asserted it? I really honestly hope your intuition doesn't get you into fixes like this usually.

User avatar
excuse me please
KVRist
35 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:34 pm

IncarnateX wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:03 pm
excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:57 pm
IncarnateX wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:10 pm
excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:26 pm

I have to get lost, because you can't read? You are really something...
Can't read? On which planet would that be, your chords don't exist on this one. Kid, you have shit your pants in public. Your face will not be saved by rubbing it further in it.
You clearly have some trouble with reading, yes; my comment was deliberately not addressed to you, but to member jancivil. Address your posts correctly, please.
dude, this ^^^^ is to say that I agree with Jan no matter who you addressed. You are in the wrong here, just accept it and learn from it, instead of going ad hominem.
Mmkay, Mozart.

User avatar
IncarnateX
KVRAF
3198 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:50 am

excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:34 pm
Mmkay, Mozart.
Good. You are already showing progress :)

Funny character you are, at least you are more funny to me than really worth getting pissed at. I think it is the wonderful correspondence between your content, style and avatar, kind of charming, though you lack insight in tonality and e.g. the importance of cadences.

Stamped Records
KVRer
15 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:20 am

excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:20 pm
Dear OP, compare these two chords: Cmaj6 and Cm6

C E G A, C Eb G A

As you can see, the interval C-A is both called m6 AND Maj6, which makes no sense; there is no such thing as a m6 interval, logically spoken! There's only a Maj6 interval.

Now I ask you... if a train arrives at Berkeley station, and you see everyone jump before that train... would you jump before that train too? Or would you rather wait for a few seconds to catch that train and get the hell out of Berkeley? It's up to you, I assume.
I dunno man, it seems you might need a refresher, because, as this is more fresh in my mind from recent study, I know that the min and maj only refers to the 3rd interval. The 6th is always major.

Stamped Records
KVRer
15 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:23 am

IncarnateX wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:01 pm
jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:02 pm

I think his "not exactly" was an interpretation of 'so the function is my choice'
Yup. OP: Which key you will play in is your choice but from that point, functions of chords will depend on key and should be named accordingly, also if you change key.
Lots of good information on this topic that I will continue to process, but in a nutshell, I think this is the perspective I was seeking.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
15386 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:07 am

Stamped Records wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:20 am
excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:20 pm
Dear OP, compare these two chords: Cmaj6 and Cm6

C E G A, C Eb G A

As you can see, the interval C-A is both called m6 AND Maj6, which makes no sense; there is no such thing as a m6 interval, logically spoken! There's only a Maj6 interval.

Now I ask you... if a train arrives at Berkeley station, and you see everyone jump before that train... would you jump before that train too? Or would you rather wait for a few seconds to catch that train and get the hell out of Berkeley? It's up to you, I assume.
I dunno man, it seems you might need a refresher, because, as this is more fresh in my mind from recent study, I know that the min and maj only refers to the 3rd interval. The 6th is always major.
Wow. Just wow.
As Stamped points out, major and minor in the name refers to the quality of the triad, major or minor, which owes to the third.
The interval C to Ab is a minor sixth. This is the first time I've ever seen a major sixth confused with a minor sixth. It's Intro to Music Theory material. If you don't have this you shouldn't be talking music theory, as you lack the prerequisite for Music Theory 101. Hilarious, I laughed so loud, honestly. You missed the train, bud. You're standing there distracted by your own waving your dick around.

Cm6 says 'minor triad, add a major 6th'. That's the convention. It is, however, another reason for the add6 designation which as I said before, I prefer. I don't think understanding the convention is particularly suicidal.

C Eb G Ab is an Ab major 7th chord in first inversion. The (experienced) ear is going to agree with these words. This is why when we see '6' in the conventional chord sign eg. Cm6 the 6 says major 6th. A minor triad plus minor 6th chord doesn't really exist. Ab C Eb G is the tertial construct.

C E G Ab, same problem. It's an Ab augmented triad with a major 7th in first inversion. Ab C E G is the tertial construct.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
15386 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:40 pm

someone called simon wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:19 pm
jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:01 pm

E G C is C major first inversion. Full_stop.
C is_not a sharp 5 from E. Count 'em: E F G A B C; 1 2 3 4 5 6.

Augmented fifth is a derivative of an augmented triad: E G# B#. E G C is C major; this is not an opinion, this is a fact.
It comes from [...] thinking that the minor version of the chord would be called the same thing.
There is no minor version of an augmented chord; actually this reveals exactly why. It's just a misspelling of a major triad in first inversion. This is simply a mistake.

User avatar
IncarnateX
KVRAF
3198 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:55 am

excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:52 pm
@IncarnateX

Yes, you are right about the E-G-A-C chord considered the sus4 symbol. It should simply be a #3. Sorry. It should be Em#3#5 then.
I missed this one, guess I had given up details at that point. An augmented minor third (you are in E minor as indicated by your “m”, right?) is a major third and would never be written like that. You have just changed your G into a G# and your E minor into E major, but nevermind because neither E minor nor E major is the same key as C major, so the clusterfck is all the same.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
15386 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:20 am

Hilarious. #3 in addition to a minor 3rd now instead of a fourth, & as though this looks more legit.
Maybe this one is just trolling.

There is practically never such a thing as a #3 in tonal music. Two thirds in a four-note chord! (One of them simply to justify the stupidity of a #5 in a {supposed} minor harmony instead of the boring old 6th in a 6 chord.) :idiot:

User avatar
IncarnateX
KVRAF
3198 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:02 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:20 am
Maybe this one is just trolling.
My thought too. Or at least I hope so for his own sake.

Return to “Music Theory”