KVR Audio

Klinke · Post by **Klinke** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:27 am

thecontrolcentre wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:07 pm I've always had fast, useful responses from Ableton support (via email). YMMV

I send them a support request two weeks ago, and the only response I got was an automated response that they received my request. I replied to this response (it starts with "##- Please type your reply above this line -##" so I think that's feasible) one week later and still got no reaction (and I checked the Spam folder). I tried also many times to reach them via phone, my best success was waiting for 20 minutes waiting loop before they throw me out of it. Most times I only got a "please call between ...", although I called them in the time frame given on there homepage.

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:25 am

Live has been my main DAW for a long time now. I tried Bitwig for a few weeks.
My conclusion is that Bitwig is still one to watch, but Live is still in another ballpark.

The maturity of Live, the workflow, it's just lightyears ahead of Bitwig.

Having said that, these Bitwig guys are not exactly standing still.
Give them a few more years and who knows in this fickle business.

Have to recommend Live above all though.

EnGee · Post by **EnGee** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:53 am

I really felt Bitwig 2 is mature enough to recommend. The effects has been improved from version 1. IMO it's on par with Live and as someone said, if you are not bound to Push, then it's a good idea to try Bitwig. Although I can't see a big advantage from moving from one to another. It's good though to have one of them at least

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:57 am

Bitwig for me for reasons below.

It’s a full DAW, not just focused primarily on clips.
Clips have in clip editing...essential!
Pop up contex sensative browser with search and user tagging
Full MPE support
Real Tablet support (dedicated gui) for MS surface which I use a lot...A useable mobile DAW!
Unified modulation system (I never liked Max, the UMS is simple, musical and consistent)
CV control (best of any DAW and my eutorack loves Bitwig....this alone is enough to justify BWS for me)
More interesting instruments, more interesting sampler (Live is still just bundling the AAS suit...)
Updated with significant updates every 4 months...I love this

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:47 am

If you want to do lots of loop slicing, Live is great... they've spent years in that. I don't find it of interest at all.

Bitwig is doing a helluva lot more creative development. Like SLiC mentioned, it is great for CV control. Bitwig also has tighter midi timing for working with hardware.

Live is basically adding on the usual stuff from other daws. Bitwig is coming up with fresh stuff, some of it quite unique. Lack of MPE support was a big reason I stopped using Live. The other big reason was that Ableton just isn't going where I'm interested to go.

For years users asked Ableton to add midi channel support. Still not there. Various Bitwig users were requesting it and viola! it's there and well and fully implemented. I got tired of waiting for things that may never happen in Live. Bitwig is doing the stuff that matters to me.

Reefius · Post by **Reefius** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:14 am

Why do the fanboys keep insisting it's not a subscription? Once you stop paying you don't receive any more updates when your subscription ends.

In the long term, Bitwig is the most expensive DAW because of this subscription model. And the fanboy's reply to this is always "You don't have to pay if you don't want to", but they forget to mention that you will also don't receive any more updates then.

A simple calculation for the next 10 years:

Ableton Live Suite 10 purchase: $599
FREE updates until Live 11 is released (usually about 5 years)
Upgrade to Live 11 is around $240
So a total of $840 and you receive updates for 10 years
Bitwig Studio purchase: $399
First year of updates is included, so to stay up-to-date for 10 years you need to subscribe for 9 years
So that's 9 x $169 = 1521
That makes a total of $1920 if you want to receive updates for 10 years

For that kind of money you can keep updating Ableton Live for about 50 year

ATS · Post by **ATS** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:20 am

I'm trying to look at it besides the cost. Like to me just the best one regardless of price.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:48 am

Reefius wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:14 am Why do the fanboys keep insisting it's not a subscription? Once you stop paying you don't receive any more updates when your subscription ends.

not true, you still get the bugfixes (minor versions like 2.3.1, 2.3.2, 2.3.3 etc.) but not the next "major" version (2.4) this is how it's working

beside this you missed the sales in your calculation,

Good news Friday!
We're getting summer started with a special deal.
Upgrade to the latest and greatest version of Bitwig Studio today for $129
(instead of $169).
Treat your music right.

UPGRADE NOW

Reefius · Post by **Reefius** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:59 am

Both products can have sales, that's why I intentionally listed the regular prices.

EnGee · Post by **EnGee** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:13 am

To be fair, I can spend on Bitwig the same as on Live!
Let's see how can I do it to be the same:
Buying a license would give me one year free update, right? then after that I stay with that version another 2 years, so that a 3 years period in total, then spend some money to have all I missed plus one year with $169! Not bad!

Reefius · Post by **Reefius** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:38 am

For me personally, Bitwig has way too many annoyances. Just take a look at this screenshot:

bitwig.jpg

First of all, look at the tiny mixer faders, these are NOT resizable. How can anyone create a decent mix on such tiny faders? This also results in a lot of wasted screen space.
The mixer is also completely blank without any dB markers, which means any form of metering is non-existent in Bitwig. If you want metering you need to use external plugins.

Then there's the browser pane on the right which is way too small. Sure it can be resized, but Bitwig doesn't remember it and the next time it starts up again with that way too small browser pane.

And what if I don't need or want the browser pane and only use the popup browser? Same thing, I can close the pane but at the next startup it will be back. Same for the info pane on the left, I can close it but Bitwig doesn't remember it.

The popup browser has the same issue: sure I can resize it, but the next time it will pop up again at its original size.

And don't get me started on the drum rack, which is a total joke. I wouldn't be surprised if they wait at least another year to update this, so it once again is a paid update like the sampler in 2.4.

That's my biggest issue with the subscription model: they hold back big updates like they did with the sampler, to make people pay for them.

Sure they keep implementing new features, but they strategically wait longh enough to implement them so most people have to pay another $169 to receive them.

Edit: another very annoying issue with Bitwig is that it does not reset controllers to their original state on exit. I need to reboot or disconnect/reconnect controllers after using Bitwig to put them back to their default state.

Reefius · Post by **Reefius** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:45 am

EnGee wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:13 am To be fair, I can spend on Bitwig the same as on Live!
Let's see how can I do it to be the same:
Buying a license would give me one year free update, right? then after that I stay with that version another 2 years, so that a 3 years period in total, then spend some money to have all I missed plus one year with $169! Not bad!

Of course you could do that, but then you also have no new features for 2 years, so if they release some feature you really want in that timespan, will you be able to wait?

That's exactly how this subscription plan is meant to be, they lure you with new shiny features and count on your GAS. Every year. Or to be more precise: about every 15 months, when most people's subscripion has just ended.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:47 am

TBH, i wonder how good business is going for Bitwig. It's been in development for a looong time, with virtually no income for the employees (unless i miss something), and now, they have to compete with big guys like Ableton. Did they actually run a crowdfunding or something?

EnGee · Post by **EnGee** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:06 am

To be honest, I prefer paying per major versions updates Like from version 1 to version 2 ...etc. But, I think I don't need to update my software all the times to get minor updates especially if I'm not using that features! So, let's take Reaper. Sometimes I skip the updates because they are so frequent! Most of the updates is not relate to main features, unless fixing a really buggy 'thing' that affects timing or recording midi/audio whatsoever! But, usually there is like a sweet spot in every major version that stops there till another major version comes.

Now, for the measurements in the mixer. There is an icon (in mixer mode) that show you additional measurements above the standard ones. While in the arrangement mode, you can see the measurements if you click on any track. It would be seen in the inspector panel. Yes, I agree, it would be nicer if it is like in Live or Reaper, that is measurements is visible within the standard indicators (vertically on the small mixer and horizontally on the track, like in Reaper).

I don't know, I think I would be happy to have Bitwig again! But that won't stop my love to Live! Which one would be my wife and which one would be my mistress?! I have no idea!

andypryce · Post by **andypryce** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:29 am

Numbers don’t really matter. Bitwig has more stuff added between 2 and 2.3 than Live 9 to 10. I mean how is adding letter R for reverse İs written one of the new features while all key commands should be customizable already?
Besides in 5 years when Live is 11 Bitwig will at least be at Version 4. Nevertheless I stil use Live more because I can’t give up Push2

Bitwig VS Ableton