Bitwig VS Ableton

[antic604]

A simple calculation for the next 10 years:

• Ableton Live Suite 10 purchase: $599
  FREE updates until Live 11 is released (usually about 5 years)
  Upgrade to Live 11 is around $240
  So a total of $840 and you receive updates for 10 years
• Bitwig Studio purchase: $399
  First year of updates is included, so to stay up-to-date for 10 years you need to subscribe for 9 years
  So that's 9 x $169 = 1521
  That makes a total of $1920 if you want to receive updates for 10 years

For that kind of money you can keep updating Ableton Live for about 50 year

1) Live 10 was an anomaly, due to Push being released in that time so I'd expect the updates to be more frequent going forward, more like every 2-4 years, so making it 3 you need to factor in 3x $249

2) If you really assess the worth of a creative tool, that lets you channel your artistic vision and create music by its monetary cost, then I don't really know what to say... Also, if $1.5-2k is a significant amount for you over 10 years, then maybe it's time to get a job? I spend that easily every year on updates, VSTs, hardware... And I'm just a hobbyist.

First of all, look at the tiny mixer faders, these are NOT resizable. How can anyone create a decent mix on such tiny faders? This also results in a lot of wasted screen space.The mixer is also completely blank without any dB markers, which means any form of metering is non-existent in Bitwig. If you want metering you need to use external plugins.

True, the faders should be resizeable and I'm certain they will at some point. Also, for metering you're supposed to use the big meters which provide more than enough info, whereas small faders isn't really an issue since you can double-click and just enter the desired value. This is how Bitwig looks on a 12'' screen of Surface Pro 4 :

Main screen:



Mixer:



The advantage Bitwig's GUI has over Live's (IMO) is that it's very flexible and the balance of size of the elements is just right - in Live, at 100% scaling the device panels are too small and I need to bring it up to 220-240% (relative to Windows' scaling) to use comfortably, but then everything else is a bit too big. In Bitwig, I can easily work at 175% and devices are still bigger than in Live. It also helps greatly that Bitwig is touch-screen ready, so most controls are bigger.

Then there's the browser pane on the right which is way too small. Sure it can be resized, but Bitwig doesn't remember it and the next time it starts up again with that way too small browser pane.

And what if I don't need or want the browser pane and only use the popup browser? Same thing, I can close the pane but at the next startup it will be back. Same for the info pane on the left, I can close it but Bitwig doesn't remember it.

The popup browser has the same issue: sure I can resize it, but the next time it will pop up again at its original size.

For me the side browser stays hidden & I only use the big browser. Try switching the display to "small screen" profile (or something like that) - the only difference I see is that the Inspector is now on the right, "replacing" then side browser (which you can always bring up with Ctrl+B).

And don't get me started on the drum rack, which is a total joke. I wouldn't be surprised if they wait at least another year to update this, so it once again is a paid update like the sampler in 2.4.

Can you elaborate, because I can't see how it's a "joke"? Maybe it doesn't cover 100% of the functionality Live has (although I'd say it's pretty close now), but it's definitely not a joke.

And I can turn your "logic" upside down as well - I got Phase-4 synth for free in v2.3 update, but Ableton WAITED until v10 to give me Wavetable. Those greedy bastards!!!

That's my biggest issue with the subscription model: they hold back big updates like they did with the sampler, to make people pay for them.

Sure they keep implementing new features, but they strategically wait longh enough to implement them so most people have to pay another $169 to receive them.

You do realise that:
a) Bitwig was released in 2014 vs. Live in 2001
b) Bitwig is a 10 people team, with 4 developers
c) all DAWs (or in general - all software) add features as they go - sometimes free, sometimes paid, e.g. why was Ableton HOLDING BACK until v10 to properly support high-DPI screens, add multi-clip editing, introduce trackpad zoom/scroll gestures?! Those are simple things, I'm sure were ready 10 years ago... Why are they still HOLDING BACK the VST3, MPE, plugin sandboxing, proper mixer that you can see & use while in arrangement, etc. I'm sure those things are ready, but they wait until v11 so that I have to pay

[antic604]

TBH, i wonder how good business is going for Bitwig. It's been in development for a looong time, with virtually no income for the employees (unless i miss something), and now, they have to compete with big guys like Ableton. Did they actually run a crowdfunding or something?

1) Well, I'm pretty sure they weren't working for free those two starting years - like any startup, there was some investment funded either from savings of the founding members or a bank loan.

2) I think currently it goes well - I see more and more people talking & using Bitwig, there are new YT channels poppingu up focusing on Bitwig, some YT "magazines" are doing their plugin reviews or trainings with it (recently saw it in Future Magazine, for example), which is also an indicator of its growing popularity.

I think the whole "subscription" thing hurt their image a bit (it's ALWAYS brought up in threads such as this...), but the last 18 months proven they're really true to their promise and they actually don't hold back the updates and just push features out as soon as they're ready. Sure, they might not be to everybody's liking but - the way I see it - most of the things added fit right in Bitwig's character or identity. For me, I only really miss 3 things: GPU-accelerated GUI, alias/linked clips and stretching of audio clips right in the arrangement.

[pdxindy]

A simple calculation for the next 10 years:

• Ableton Live Suite 10 purchase: $599
  FREE updates until Live 11 is released (usually about 5 years)
  Upgrade to Live 11 is around $240
  So a total of $840 and you receive updates for 10 years

You are wildly inaccurate.

Live 9 - 10 was close to 5 years. During that time, most of the development was with Push and the core app hardly advanced. Nothing to be excited about there.

Live 8 - 9 was 4 years. Nearly 2 of those years was because Live 8 was so buggy and unstable and the uproar so loud that Ableton publicly stated they were halting development to fix bugs.

Before that Ableton averaged a paid upgrade every year and a half or so over its lifespan.

Now that Ableton has a Push in that hands of most Live users, they will need another source of income so I guess paid upgrades will go back to something like every 2 years.

***

Bitwig is developing much faster than Live. One of the reasons I switched away from Live is because the core application was developing so slow. Sure it didn't cost much in upgrades, but it also didn't do what I want and with little likelihood it would in a few years.

If I want slow improvements for less money, I can choose that with Bitwig by just updating every 2-3 years... With Live one is just stuck in slow motion.

Oh, and your Bitwig calculation is also off... My first year ended up being 16 months. And I paid $129. At that rate, the 10 years for me will be a bit under $1000 not the $1500 you estimated.

[pdxindy]

That's my biggest issue with the subscription model: they hold back big updates like they did with the sampler, to make people pay for them.

You really don't understand the pricing model. Someone who purchased Bitwig 9 months ago, got the sampler (2.4) update for free.

The timing of renewal dates is quickly being distributed across the year.

If you want to dislike the Bitwig model fine, but you making stories up in your head that just aren't true.

[pdxindy]

2) I think currently it goes well - I see more and more people talking & using Bitwig, there are new YT channels poppingu up focusing on Bitwig, some YT "magazines" are doing their plugin reviews or trainings with it (recently saw it in Future Magazine, for example), which is also an indicator of its growing popularity.

I would agree... it is being talked about a lot more.

[Reefius]

You really don't understand the pricing model. Someone who purchased Bitwig 9 months ago, got the sampler (2.4) update for free.

I do understand the pricing model, but it's a fact that most people will pay right after a big update like 2.4 recently, so I'm quite sure there will be another big update like that about 13 to 15 months after the release of 2.4. Because then the subscription will be ended for all those people who updated to 2.4 when it was released.

Fact is that Bitwig now has the power to release what they want, whenever they want. All they need to do is check for the biggest peak in their yearly sales numbers and then strategically add a year plus 1 to 3 months to release their next big update.

[pdxindy]

You really don't understand the pricing model. Someone who purchased Bitwig 9 months ago, got the sampler (2.4) update for free.

I do understand the pricing model, but it's a fact that most people will pay right after a big update like 2.4 recently, so I'm quite sure there will be another big update like that about 13 to 15 months after the release of 2.4. Because then the subscription will be ended for all those people who updated to 2.4 when it was released.

Fact is that Bitwig now has the power to release what they want, whenever they want. All they need to do is check for the biggest peak in their yearly sales numbers and then strategically add a year plus 1 to 3 months to release their next big update.

2.4 wasn't a bigger update than 2.3 - you are stuck in an old way of thinking. Plenty of people thought 2.4 by itself wasn't so interesting cause they aren't interested in the Sampler or the Midi Channel support.

And Bitwig has no reason to do what you are saying. It is to their advantage to put out new features when they have them. If they wanted to do what you are talking about, they would have stuck with the classic model which functions exactly as you describe.

You are just making crap up to suit your agenda.

[poonna]

I do understand the pricing model, but it's a fact that most people will pay right after a big update like 2.4 recently, so I'm quite sure there will be another big update like that about 13 to 15 months after the release of 2.4. Because then the subscription will be ended for all those people who updated to 2.4 when it was released.

Fact is that Bitwig now has the power to release what they want, whenever they want. All they need to do is check for the biggest peak in their yearly sales numbers and then strategically add a year plus 1 to 3 months to release their next big update.

It’s still purely speculation at this point. I’m not saying they aren’t doing that, but 2.3 was a big update, arguably bigger and more essential than 2.4, and still fell right within everyone’s first year. So, I think your point is not yet proven.

Still, at this rate of development, what you get in one year of Bitwig is still more than what you get in a couple years of Live. Probably a better metric is not price per year, but price per weighted new features (weighted by how big a feature is).

[ozinga]

You really don't understand the pricing model. Someone who purchased Bitwig 9 months ago, got the sampler (2.4) update for free.

I do understand the pricing model, but it's a fact that most people will pay right after a big update like 2.4 recently, so I'm quite sure there will be another big update like that about 13 to 15 months after the release of 2.4. Because then the subscription will be ended for all those people who updated to 2.4 when it was released.

Fact is that Bitwig now has the power to release what they want, whenever they want. All they need to do is check for the biggest peak in their yearly sales numbers and then strategically add a year plus 1 to 3 months to release their next big update.

Updates like 2.4 happens around every 4 months. So I guess we are probably about 2 months away from 2.5 which I am sure will bring no less than than 2.4 update. And before a yearly payment ends for some one who renewed with 2.4 will get at least 2.7 for free or maybe 3.0 who knows. But of course I am thinking according to the current development cycle. If this model helps the fast progress I am all for it.
Oz

[Klinke]

For years users asked Ableton to add midi channel support. Still not there. Various Bitwig users were requesting it and viola! it's there and well and fully implemented. I got tired of waiting for things that may never happen in Live. Bitwig is doing the stuff that matters to me.

Yes, I find it really astonishing how bad/ignorant the MIDI implemenation of Ableton Live is. Beside ignoring MIDI channels I also detected that it's not possible to use controller with endless encoders like the LIVID code, as Live filter out the CC-events that are identical to the CC-events before. Okay, the MIDI specification says AFAIK nothing about endless encoders, but this is a really "interessting" optimization, that can not be justified with the MIDI specification.

[pottering]

I have a Beatstep with endless encoders and it works just fine in Live.

When you MIDI Assign any parameter, you can select the type of the message to fit the control.

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/midi- ... ontrollers

[ATS]

with Bitwig can you stop getting updates for like a year then pay and get the recent updates after that? Like Waves WUP? (which I think is fair)

[Klinke]

I have a Beatstep with endless encoders and it works just fine in Live.

When you MIDI Assign any parameter, you can select the type of the message to fit the control.

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/midi- ... ontrollers

In my case, the plugin must handle the MIDI events, assigning MIDI to a parameter is not an option. Try to send the encoders to a MIDI Monitor inside a track and you will see the problem.

[andypryce]

with Bitwig can you stop getting updates for like a year then pay and get the recent updates after that? Like Waves WUP? (which I think is fair)

Yes renew whenever you want. You get the latest version.

[ATS]

with Bitwig can you stop getting updates for like a year then pay and get the recent updates after that? Like Waves WUP? (which I think is fair)

Yes renew whenever you want. You get the latest version.

To me that is awesome because you can keep using what you have right?