Are Todays Daw's Making People Lazy Producers ?

[Kinh]

I think at least someone needs to answer the question of this thread (given everyone else has drifted), electronic producers who use DAWs are not lazy, they work just as hard, if not harder than producers of the 80s (who btw, had great bands to snap their fingers to). In fact I think producers who dont have great musicians at their beck and call have to try a bit harder.

[DJ Warmonger]

DAWs don't have anything to do with it. On the contrary, modern DAWs today are easier and more powerful music creation tools, and as such they promote better music. It's the producers fault and the trends in music today.

If DAWs didn't exist you would be doing it the long and hard way, so they do make things easier, which equates to lazier and less work.

I don't support this "hard" mindset. Fastfoods are for lazy asses - if fastfoods didn't exist, you would go and hunt a deer in a wood, like a real man?

The people should understand the fact that science is used to simplify and have more production in realtime very often

This. Thanks to technology we can be now more productive in shorter time. Because, you know, our lifetime is limited.
The fact that someone can produce music only during weekend doesn't imply "laziness" - maybe this person has to work hard to support the family and other shiz? Maybe he doesn't have 5 hours to set up a recording session?
Some years ago "art" was reserved either to aristocrats or underdogs with no money or responsibilities.

[robotmonkey]

Tools don't make the music.

That is just naive and plain out wrong. Tools to make the music, and strangely enough, these days they music more that ever.

80's a good example of how certain tools actually defined music of the era. There' were a lot of cookie cutter music with a very specific sound. Some of it could be put down to the fact that technological possibilities were limited to said tools. But it never was as bad as it is today. Today we have pretty much unlimited possibilities for generating sounds, yet so much of the music has never sounded so formulaic, boring and tedious and depended so much on certain technology. It seems like everyone has been following the tutorials form the latest CM.

There's obviously plenty of good and original music made but almost all the most original sounding albums I have heard in past 5 years (or even 10) have been made by people that started out mostly in the late 60's or early 70's with some musicians form the 80's thrown in.

[chk071]

Trolling? How'd you get the moderator job, may I ask?

By being one of the nicest, most reasonable, and most even tempered people in the kvr community.

After a couple of PM's with Hink, I can absolutely confirm that.

Don't event want to think about what would happen if I became a mod, here or elsewhere.

[whyterabbyt]

The amount of physical work that was required before the advent of DAWs is highly underrated around here. The amount of hauling, setup, preparation, cabling, labeling, microphone placement, mounting and editing of tape while using analog hardware took a lot more work then sitting all day behind a computer and keyboard painting bars on a grid of a piano roll.

The amount of education, time and practice it took for people to orchestrate and compose music by hand and paper took longer and required a lot more physical intervention and activity.

People now a days are so lazy they don't even know how to play an instrument, read notation or study music theory. They can just use a plugin to randomly generate or create things with artificial intelligence.

Having band practice took more physical work ethic and determination then turning your computer chair around from the TV to your computer monitor. Driving to gigs, practicing in basements and trying to physically record a song from scratch took more effort then grabbing a cup of coffee and waiting for your operating system to boot up.

All of this while we procrastinate with social media technology, and wasting time playing video games on the side, during breaks of course.

What happened to all those outdoor activities you've been promising?

what a very large collection of false dichotomies and unsubstantiated assertions.

[jancivil]

As someone who doesn't need to "imagine" working with tape and edits, it's more accurate and in a sense easier to do it in the audio editor in Cubendo. In that I was pretty good at it with tape, it takes maybe less time, maybe not as it's a different method; for instance I zoom way in and cut visually versus scrubbing. I'm really anal about it, vs getting on with it. Certainly more accuracy is availed.

It's not very much physical labor to literally scrub vs click a mouse or make a mark with the white pencil or draw the blade across the tape. So this is a rather poor example of DAW tech <making> a person lazier.

Your remote control on your TV makes you lazier, hard to argue with.

Actually, no, it's not hard to argue with.

If an Olympic champion uses every time saving device known to humanity, he still isn't lazy.

To think that a time saving device or convenience makes one more lazy is to assume that there is a natural amount of work in life. If you take this to its logical conclusion, we would all be living in colonial Williamsburg.

It's absurd, isn't it.

And, I already argued with it. NB: 'making' is emphasized there as operative in the sentence. It doesn't make a person anything. Me having an audio editor in a capable DAW 1) isn't noticeably less laborious physically and 2) opens up ways of editing not available so I have more on the ball than I did. I wonder if by this same argument having the abbreviation 'NB' available to me makes me lazy, encouraging me to type less than I will with 'Nota Bene'.

[jancivil]

The amount of physical work that was required before the advent of DAWs is highly underrated around here. The amount of hauling, setup, preparation, cabling, labeling, microphone placement, mounting and editing of tape while using analog hardware took a lot more work then sitting all day behind a computer and keyboard painting bars on a grid of a piano roll.

I would be very happy to put any track I have made using a virtual drum kit beside your actual recording using mics set up recording drums. I mean you as the recording engineer, the mixing engineer and the drummer; doing all of this work which is necessary in making one a moral - or superior - sort of a person.

I was a bike messenger during the days I relied on people in a room and a microphone, by the way. I rather doubt my very muscular legs, which I still have 30 yrs down the road, amount to very much added value in the way of my musicianship. The only things I would have to show from these times were when something was funded. Some people are more fortunate, which amounts to funding.

So, I no longer carry stuff around, and I don't do the dusting to keep some "analog" piece of gear around (another necessary and moral bit of work by this same argument), either.

Through some failure of the reasoning engine in you, that argument is supposed to agree with and support this:

The amount of education, time and practice it took for people to orchestrate and compose music by hand and paper took longer and required a lot more physical intervention and activity.

People now a days are so lazy they don't even know how to play an instrument, read notation or study music theory. They can just use a plugin to randomly generate or create things with artificial intelligence.

It does somewhat agree with it but an absurdity supporting a sophistry still appears to be a rather significant failure:

Do we suppose that Stephen Hawking, using an assistant and a voice engine in order to speak and so forth experienced an atrophy of his learning capacity at the time, and continued to, according to subsequent effects of his disease? Since getting physical exercise is some factor in this.

Having band practice took more physical work ethic and determination then turning your computer chair around from the TV to your computer monitor. Driving to gigs, practicing in basements and trying to physically record a song from scratch took more effort then grabbing a cup of coffee and waiting for your operating system to boot up.

See, there it is, in case one is tempted to think my above argument is too vehement: "physical work ethic". Protestant work ethic. "You brats are spoiled." So what?

Taking more effort is supposed to be better than enjoying work saving devices. I already made this argument but why not be a little bit redundant, or even expound on the difference.

I like having the ability to exploit drum sounds I never had to record. It makes my music far, far richer than it can have been absent the budget to do it, and the budget to do it is serious money. I like having the option to zoom in and make edits which are beyond reproach, and the option of stretching audio to fit after I've rendered. Or when the 2-file, or at best stems, is all that's left of something I did.

I really like being able to see cross-rhythms in the key editor and move back and forth between divisions of the time as opposed to different sheets of paper and a ruler; it's mind-expanding. The work saved is a benefit in a huge way, because I move from idea to idea and don't waste so much time on the unworkable in a trial and error-intensive modus operandi.

I like writing pitch variances and hearing them; I work with pitch in a way that one would never have in those times, even as a millionaire with six figures invested in the Synclavier. I like long pitch bends you can't do with a pitch wheel; I'm loving MPE glide on a controller which didn't exist until recently. I like hearing everything.

I have ideas generated by technology.
I don't know anybody who is relying on AI (which doesn't really exist) to generate their music. I did already touch on loops and reliance on the machine to do every little thing. It encourages posers and frauds, but it doesn't make anybody that. I know people that do generative music, however and they are essentially more clever than am I. Their minds are stimulated by possibilities.

All of this while we procrastinate with social media technology, and wasting time playing video games on the side, during breaks of course.

What WE? I have never played a video game in my life. I have more time to create therefore more free time to waste and watch Netflix, though. Yes, during breaks.
(I have done a couple of days at the computer where I didn't do anything but work for 24 hrs except make instant coffee and toast, nota bene. This is not my Puritan Work Ethic, this is obsession.)

So <labor-saving> means more productivity.

NB: I first used a computer to create pieces of music in 1986. Fortunately I was modestly funded to the extent I could take 3 wks off from riding a bike all or most of the day to write a show we did above the MOMA in the old War Memorial Opera House where we used that; and a couple of synthesizers! I think I also had my drum machine. If my life had been harder than it was I don't see it making my work better. Somebody recorded it on a Walkman. Yay! Ethical af.



There is nothing in your argument which does anything worth a shit. So when someone chimes in with the Juvenoia tag, you've provided them with the ammunition for it.

[DJ Warmonger]

At the end of the day, I think we have conflicting point of views here. As an engineer and software developer, I always wanted to make things easier and faster for myself and everyone else.
Yet, there are some people who believe others need to work hard and long for some reason, or they are wasting their time, get lazy or otherwise unworthy. The same argument to "drop DAWs as they make users lazy" can be used to "ban condoms as they make people impure". This is not funny anymore, this is dangerous mindset

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

The amount of physical work that was required before the advent of DAWs is highly underrated around here. The amount of hauling, setup, preparation, cabling, labeling, microphone placement, mounting and editing of tape while using analog hardware took a lot more work then sitting all day behind a computer and keyboard painting bars on a grid of a piano roll.

Well, I've done some of that hauling in studios. You ain't about to try to teach granny to suck eggs, are ya?

The situation to which you refer, above, is what it took to set up a recording for a band. What do you think is different these days, with regard to recording a band. You can take cabling off the list, 'cause Multicore cabling, patchbays etc, which was certainly the case in your hallowed days in the studio.

Bricks & mortar studios, these days, aren't really any different; that is, save for the DAW being at the centre of the console. But, aside from having the benefits of live rooms, good quality outboard etc, one of the big draws is that many still use tape. So, again, what is different about professional studios. And what the hell do they have to do with the particular workflow of the home-producer?

Ever since the 520ST bought Notator and Cubase into house-holds, people have been entering music via piano-roll. And this happily co-existed with those who lugged around amps, and wrote labels. Moreover, neither of these things are mutually exclusive: It is possible for someone to be adept at clicking in piano-rolls, and familiar with the workings of a 'proper' studio. I was just one of those people for whom home recording didn't preclude my recording with bands in 'real' studios.

Lastly, "sitting all day behind a computer and keyboard painting bars on a grid of a piano roll" is still sitting all day and working. I don't think using chairs are a good thing, but working all day at a computer is far from lazy. I bet you sit at your computer, right?

The amount of education, time and practice it took for people to orchestrate and compose music by hand and paper took longer and required a lot more physical intervention and activity.

Not true. It takes the same training for someone to be able to orchestrate and compose, regardless of the medium. Handwriting sheet music has the advantages of the medium being something we've been used to our entire lives. Notation software is a whole other thing that needs to be learnt. And while it does end up having distinct advantages, the learning curve can not be dismissed.

People now a days are so lazy they don't even know how to play an instrument, read notation or study music theory. They can just use a plugin to randomly generate or create things with artificial intelligence.

"People"?? Just how many people? All of them/us.

There is a good argument to be made for none of those things being necessary. However, what makes you sure that laziness has anything to do with anything? Some people were never directed towards pursuing the arts, as children. Some may have had bad experiences early on in life that meant they would avoid indulging their creative sides. Some children had a natural talent for sports, and spent all of their formative years training and playing in various team sports. Their exists myriad reasons why certain people never ended up learning how to play an instrument, read music etc, that have f**k all to do with laziness.

None of this means that these people should be barred from making music using computers, even if they choose to do so to the exclusion of more traditional forms of music expression.

As for artificial intelligence: Maybe one day you'll have some semblance of a point. However, at the moment, any software that the general public has access to falls way short of giving the results that you seem to be claiming.

Having band practice took more physical work ethic and determination then turning your computer chair around from the TV to your computer monitor. Driving to gigs, practicing in basements and trying to physically record a song from scratch took more effort then grabbing a cup of coffee and waiting for your operating system to boot up.

Except that turning a computer on, making coffee etc is not the equivalent of what you are comparing it to. It is more like making sure that before 'we' started setting up our instruments that at least one person was skinning-up. However, once all is said and done, slaving away in front of a computer for five hours is not a world away from a five-hour band rehearsal. It is easier on the ears, though

All of this while we procrastinate with social media technology, and wasting time playing video games on the side, during breaks of course.

What has this got to do with anything? If you have no self-control, that's on you. Either way, this has nothing to do with daw's

What happened to all those outdoor activities you've been promising?

A few hours daily walking. Some Yoga. Not to mention, my studio is on a standing desk, so there's that I can play multiple instruments, but can't read music; nor do I know any theory. Probably still a lazy oik, then

Why do you think all the kids today are stuck inside playing on tablets, consoles and computers? Maybe it's from the technology.

All the kids? Yeah, man! Tech did it

Why are the kids so over weight, out of shape and physically uncoordinated? Maybe it's the lack of outdoor activities.

Where I live, the kids are not "so over weight", and seem perfectly co-ordinated. They all seem to do outdoor activities, and yet most seem to own mobile tech. Strange, indeed

Or maybe, they are made lazy by what they've been taught to do?

At this point, I'm just going to put this down to projection on your part.

[antic604]

Where's the like button when you need one?

Well said ^^^

[IncarnateX]

it is, as is Useful Idiot

This definition is almost a compliment; not all idiots are useful.

To the OP: Complexity of DAW, endless choices, third part additions and GAS made me leave DAW land and return to workstations but this was not because I was getting lazy or quality of music changed but to get an optimal flow that suits me. Not sure I get that lazy/garbage music as something following from DAWS at all, I mean, they are not that filled with autoarrangers and hit-maker algorithms yet, are they?

[starise]

I think the question needs to be better defined in order to come out with a complete answer.

How are today's DAW's making people lazy? Which people? What techniques are they using? How do you define lazy? If something is easier does that make me lazy if I use it? Which DAW's? How?

As both a producer and a musician I don't see only the production aspects of this.I also see it from the beginning stages of a tune. Someone who is only an engineer might see it differently since they are only looking at the "production" of someone else's material. A Producer probably doesn't look at how the elements were placed. His or her only concern is the end result. If a DAW helps a producer to get a better end result than past technology I say, why not?

I totally agree that technology has taken some of the breath out of music from a musicians perspective. Why? Take one look at the basic midi keyboard. It might have 6 or 8 levels of sensitivity while a piano has UNLIMITED sensitivity. A real guitarist who can play understandably winces at midi guitars and guitar sample libraries. I've used both and no one can convince me you don't loose some of the flow of the music using a midi alternative. Sample libraries never get into the groove and feel the way a real guitarist can. The samples were taken with no regard to the context they would be used in. The player had no idea what feel to generate when the samples were made. Why did the music of the 70's sound so real? It was real. Real instruments moving real air in a real music environment. Even the old recording tech managed to capture the vibe and feel of the music.

I am very apprehensive of the AI that's beginning to be introduced into production and even music making. Anything that takes the decision away from you and gives it to a computer isn't a good thing IMO. Maybe you've heard of HUMAN 2.0?

Here are a few facts on it. It is being birthed from the idea that we are all tied to our devices. Yes we are. Go to any large city and take a brief look around at all the lemmings walking while looking into their smart phones. You don't want to admit it. You are actually tied to that device on a deeper level than you care to admit. It is a part of your daily life.
HUMAN 2.0 will only evolve this idea. In the future you will have either an attachment externally or an implant that takes the place of your smart phone. Welcome to the future. Mr. Robot will be a part of you in ways you never imagined. This will develop the HIVE mind. We will all be linked in the cloud through our brains. Our thoughts will be transmitted....and most dangerous, That integral computer will eventually be helping make decisions for you.
The new DAW will say, we already anticipated what you were going to do and did it for you. In many ways this is already happening.No wonder the new music sucks.

[donkey tugger]

I have done a few vocals for songs on the laptop whilst lying in bed. Try doing that with yer 8 track. Lazy, moi?

[learnkeys]

Well, I've done some of that hauling in studios. You ain't about to try to teach granny to suck eggs, are ya?

Not quite sure what that means, but whatever.

The situation to which you refer, above, is what it took to set up a recording for a band. What do you think is different these days, with regard to recording a band. You can take cabling off the list, 'cause Multicore cabling, patchbays etc, which was certainly the case in your hallowed days in the studio.

Yeah setting up hardware takes more physical effort and energy then setting up virtually, trust me.

Bricks & mortar studios, these days, aren't really any different; that is, save for the DAW being at the centre of the console. But, aside from having the benefits of live rooms, good quality outboard etc, one of the big draws is that many still use tape. So, again, what is different about professional studios. And what the hell do they have to do with the particular workflow of the home-producer?

A lot of "brick and mortar" studios still use large format hardware consoles, some that require manual recall, which again takes more physical effort and energy. And all the other physical work that goes into running a real studio.

Lastly, "sitting all day behind a computer and keyboard painting bars on a grid of a piano roll" is still sitting all day and working. I don't think using chairs are a good thing, but working all day at a computer is far from lazy. I bet you sit at your computer, right?

A white collar worker sitting at their desk all day typing away and answering phones is far from a blue collar worker building things with their hands all day, every day. I think you're in need of a bit of a reality check.

Not true. It takes the same training for someone to be able to orchestrate and compose, regardless of the medium. Handwriting sheet music has the advantages of the medium being something we've been used to our entire lives. Notation software is a whole other thing that needs to be learnt. And while it does end up having distinct advantages, the learning curve can not be dismissed.

I think you're set on believing that sitting at a computer chair typing all day is a form of physical work.

"People"?? Just how many people? All of them/us.

The majority? Not the niche few?

There is a good argument to be made for none of those things being necessary. However, what makes you sure that laziness has anything to do with anything? Some people were never directed towards pursuing the arts, as children. Some may have had bad experiences early on in life that meant they would avoid indulging their creative sides. Some children had a natural talent for sports, and spent all of their formative years training and playing in various team sports. Their exists myriad reasons why certain people never ended up learning how to play an instrument, read music etc, that have f**k all to do with laziness.

There's no such thing as "natural talent", it's called being taught at a young age and practicing long hours.

None of this means that these people should be barred from making music using computers, even if they choose to do so to the exclusion of more traditional forms of music expression.

I could careless what lazy people do to convince themselves they are working just as hard as someone that puts in all the time, energy, practice and physical energy to get the task done.

As for artificial intelligence: Maybe one day you'll have some semblance of a point. However, at the moment, any software that the general public has access to falls way short of giving the results that you seem to be claiming.

Lazy people will alway look for shortcuts to help make their lives easier, it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Except that turning a computer on, making coffee etc is not the equivalent of what you are comparing it to. It is more like making sure that before 'we' started setting up our instruments that at least one person was skinning-up. However, once all is said and done, slaving away in front of a computer for five hours is not a world away from a five-hour band rehearsal. It is easier on the ears, though

Booting up a computer and loading up a template is far from work. It doesn't matter how much you twiddle around with software, it doesn't make you any more physically fit. Laziness comes from the lack of physical activity, typing and moving your mouse is far from a workout routine.

What has this got to do with anything? If you have no self-control, that's on you. Either way, this has nothing to do with daw's

You are free to believe whatever you want, but as a child being raised you really don't have that ability or inclination to even question it.

A few hours daily walking. Some Yoga. Not to mention, my studio is on a standing desk, so there's that I can play multiple instruments, but can't read music; nor do I know any theory. Probably still a lazy oik, then

A musician who is serious about their craft would at least try to improve on all aspects of their musicality. A lazy person would just settle for what they already know or only what they want. The tools in DAWs allows people to remain lazy by doing the thinking, creating and work for them.

All the kids? Yeah, man! Tech did it

Technology helped, which means it has a part in it, an accomplice to the crime.

Where I live, the kids are not "so over weight", and seem perfectly co-ordinated. They all seem to do outdoor activities, and yet most seem to own mobile tech. Strange, indeed

Well unfortunately there's a huge epidemic of over weight and out of shape children all over the US, and I can tell you why, but you want to ignore the serious problem with your misdirection.

At this point, I'm just going to put this down to projection on your part.

I'm really not sure what this means, but good luck with it.

[Hink]

please stop, you're making assumptions about people only to flame the subject and just repeating them. Also if you want to talk about child obesity in the US take it to hpc not here. I dont know what that has to do with el-bo anyhow but it has nothing to do with lazy PRODUCERS.