Are Todays Daw's Making People Lazy Producers ?

[JonSolo]

Baby boomers...ugh.

[THE INTRANCER]

Yes, adults are listening to music for children, "tweens" and adolescents and acting as if that music is for adults. Same with TV and film.

Music itself doesn't define who the music is for though, it's fundamentally sound and how it's composed, and if you look back over the two decades prior to what we have heard in the past decade, you'll find that, what makes great music are the composers themselves and to be enjoyed whether you were 5 years old or 50 years old. When I was like 10 years old, my Dad played country and western type music from the likes of Dolly Parton and Elvis.. For me listening whilst I played computer games on my old Atari 800 XL, it wasn't my thing, but I understood that it had musical merit that didn't evoke me to run out the door screaming.

If kids are listening to musically crap music over the past decade, there is a likely consequence that they themselves will recycle all the crap music they have been brainwashed into thinking is good themselves, when they start producing in the future... it's only going to get worse I think. If music is bad now... think how bad it's going to be in the future.. I mean DAW's in the future heading in the direction of waving your hands in the air require no skill at all, sorta like one does on the that WII console... and VR Headsets DAW's..

I'm all for innovation, but when the tools start doing everything for you, then why bother producing any music at all.

For me anyway and I'd suspect many others, producing music is a biological thing and intrinsic to one's self as a living human being, transcended into another state of mind that is different from your normal day to day mind set. A track can take two days, a week or two weeks depending on it's complexity, and what my end goal is.

[woggle]

Yes, adults are listening to music for children, "tweens" and adolescents and acting as if that music is for adults. Same with TV and film.

Music itself doesn't define who the music is for though,

I'd argue against that - we know that (vocal) music is used across all cultures to inculcate newborns and children into the language and social norms of the parent culture. It is a special type of music with particular properties that can be easily measured and if that special type of music is then maintained throughout the lifespan by (in our case) commercial interests then we can say that adults are being infantilised in their musical preferences. That is, people are being denied adult experiences with music because the social space of music crowds out an adult experience - ie people are being infantilised without knowing any better. Worth keeping in mind that animal domestication is often seen as a process of infatilisation

[woggle]

Baby boomers...ugh.

yeah I hate those marketing terms as well

[jancivil]

but how many people here do you think wear all the hats and believe 100% they should?

I do for my own music. I didn't when I started 'in the box' creation of compositions. I didn't know from mixing at_all.
I didn't have chops in the key editor, or any editor. I worked obsessively on it. It turned out I was a good student of it.
Could I be a professional mix engineer? Mixing every kind of thing with equal panache? Probably not.

However: I was a musician for 10 yrs before I figured to write in earnest. I had a lot under my belt before I decided, evidently I have my own personality musically, I have ideas; and my own ideas were on my mind constantly. So me thinking I'm ready to do this, after... 1970 to 2005, what is that, 35 yrs. Yeah, maybe; and I read the freaking manual and plotted.

There are areas in so-called music which encourage the opposite, the notion that it doesn't take much to Produce. I'm sorry, this isn't about trying to hurt anybody's feelings, it's just a reality. I think digitalboytn said it all as to what musical production entailed, and by implication the lack herein.

"Today's DAWs" doesn't enter into it as anything more than certain people figured it's possible to come into it with no background in music and so we get music with little-to-no musicality. And of course the holders of the purse strings are hip to this: loops, yo. The abysmal state of commercial music today may intersect some with that but the real problems, endemic to society, are more top-down it seems to me. The decision-makers taking less and less chances with talent; then there's the economics which is probably where 'Today's DAWs' intersects with the poverty of this music the most. You just need 'a beat' (a track has been called 'a beat' for yrs) and maybe some other loop which sort of stands for music, a little tinkly piano motif and there's enough for a vocal. And no one has to sing anymore, you can literally just speak it and somebody knows the tricks in Autotune. I'm not fabricating a story and we all know it.

edit: I appear to have lost track of a sentence by the end of it. I'm losing it.

[jancivil]

Baby boomers...ugh.

yeah I hate those marketing terms as well

[experimental.crow]

i am so starting a band called " Vapid Umbrella " ...

[jancivil]

Yes, adults are listening to music for children, "tweens" and adolescents and acting as if that music is for adults. Same with TV and film.

Music itself doesn't define who the music is for though,

I don't even know what that's supposed to argue.

The music itself? If the reason it exists is to sell widely, the reason there is funding for it means there is a target market.
I gave a couple examples from when I was a child. Sometimes there is an effort to make something that isn't directly kid stuff. I looked thru Billboard chart toppers for when I was 16 and 17. 1973, there was Edgar Winter Group Frankenstein.
It has a nicely stupid basic riff, a pretty amusing riff, a hip bridge and a bunch of solos. This was not targeted for little kids, but kind of big kids, stoners. Someone maybe took a chance putting that out there. It's somewhat rare even for the time, I mean I remember the era pretty well but I looked at the evidence. Pop music was more melodic then; but rock did not reign the charts.
If Rock is dead now because the top ten, it was born sickly anyway. The chart hits by rock artists usually did other things to be pop.

Frank Zappa stated in the early to mid 1980s, the decisions in popular music are made by a 13-year old girl named Debbie.
It's truer than ever.

So rock is dead, why not. The state of the top forty is not better, is it? What's the argument, really? Are you rebelling against your parents? I'm not kidding, that's the tone of that shit. It's juvenile.

OTOH, around the time I was born, a Julie London could have a hit record. There's stuff to think about historically, but do stick to your guns and act like it's older people that are missing some point.

[EnochLight]

I think the biggest problem with today's DAWs is the fact that they make people forget grammar... Like the title of this topic

[Hink]

I'm not disagreeing with you Jan and please keep in mid less than three years separate us age wise. I have also said how fortunate I have been to grow along with the growth of technology. Like you, I'm absolutely in love with what we can do now. My first time in a pro studio was the late 70's, but I remember a middle school teacher having a 2 track R2R that he brought to class and when I learned it could over dub I was hooked but could only afford to do the two tape decks, two mics and 2 speakers mixing mud technique. The idea of just 4 tracks, with channels of NR, a smal board and if I was lucky a reverb was still far more money than they paid a soldier and that was the first time I was close to having the money. I slowly built up gear, suffered a horrible break in but never got discouraged.

My point is I know my limitations, I'm not saying that I'm giving up working on my mixing, but I am not above asking for help if it will enhance what I have already done. As I said I find myself becoming just to biased and tainted, I think it's common to lose some perspective when one is doing it all themselves. For this personally I set songs a side for a while, quite often I will finish with my tracks, take some pics of my amps, notes on tunings, notes on what tubes I used and how the amps are configured and come back later when my palette has been cleansed so to speak. (tbh because I really love to play I have more stuff waiting than finished by a lot).

To the point of the thread, like I said, DAWs dont make me lazy as they give me far more to do and I love it. I also agree that a lot of people come into it with no background, I dont know when I started doing this but I remember all the fun I had learning and going through new technology and honestly feel bad for them. Working in music gear retail I quickly learned how many of these people didn't have the passion that you, I and others have and soon gave it up. I dont listen to the radio (only time I got excited about the radio is when they played some of my songs) mostly because I want to listen to what I want to listen too and I rely more on peers (here and irl) or surfing youtube for new music. I have said this and it didn't go over well but I dont hate any music, there is however a lot I dont care for and do not want to hear. I wont bring myself to say that it's bad because I'm just not that way which has a lot to do with my dad.

I dont intend to hurt anyone's feelings either, but yes you are right. At one point in time my depression was pretty bad, I could have been a hater (not calling you or anyone a hater) and boost my ego by looking at such people in a negative light or I could look inward for validation (actually that's not true, in my 20's I was a "that sux" kinda guy"). In the late 80's I gave up the bands, bought a Tascam 388 all in one 8-track tape (that got stolen) and a cheesy drum machine. I didn't need anyone nor did I want anyone . Later I had 4-track again and then went digital with an Akai DPS12 and a used DX-7. I didn't even own my 1st computer until 2000 when we hit the lottery playing AL Bundy's home address for 3,800 (beside a tandy 1000 something back in the 80's I used for college).

Sorry to drag on but the point is, if (which is very unlikely) I released something commercial I think I would still go with a pro mixing engineer, meanwhile I will continue to mix on my own, learn more and hope my peers will give me positive criticism...but I am not afraid to speak up and except my weaknesses. That's how I grow and even going on 60 I'm still growing in many ways

[jancivil]

i said rock music had evolved. there was no inference it had become hip hop or electronic. in fact i even suggested seeking out post-rock which is guitars drums and singers (although predominantly a style that is instrumental)

it is rock music. that is being produced in large numbers. today. so evidently rock lives. maybe not the rock you enjoy. but it's rock.

I enjoy all music. I stopped being a music snob a long time ago - there’s just too much good stuff out there (contrary to what the old timers would have you believe).

Who would have you or the whole room believe what again?
I am aware of quite a lot of music someone who keeps waving their bag 'Top Ten' about so enthusiastically would not tend to be, I think.

So, let me introduce you to something that, in discourse, got known somewhere along the line as a straw man argument. You've fabricated a statement and a situation that's easy to beat up on and score the round with. It looks stupid, doesn't it. Only no one has said that. I have read about every post since you started this and it isn't here until your straw man said it. I've seen people say the opposite here, there is more bad and more good out of having the availability afforded by the modern DAW.
I believe the opposite of what you would have the group believe about my statements. Snob that I am.


I actually think there is music which isn't good. So I don't enjoy all music. I can't even imagine that. Do you like all foods? Do you like every TV program or motion picture there is? Are you kidding?

Would it make everyone feel better if I said “the vast majority of what people listen to today is NOT rock music (as evidenced by the top 10 songs for the past decade)”?

Do you think people feel bad because of statements you made? Other than being slightly irritated by the impudence of it all, I mean.

I'm not 'everyone' in the group, but _I_ couldn't remotely begin to care what the vast majority of people do. Because this is the lowest common denominator, and because I'm more interested in music qua music than most people; and because I tend to individuate like that. I didn't care about it when I was a little kid.

[digitalboytn]

I remember back in 1985,when I first started to put together some of the music I was writing,somebody gave me a 4 track reel to reel to use and I didn't even know how to thread the tape...

I had just come out of a music conservatorium and I was as poor as a church mouse and a total dummy when it came to technology...

Manuscript paper,guitars and acoustic pianos were my domain...

I was offered a choice of two drum machines and I took the MXR because the other one had MIDI and I had said,"MIDI ? What do I need that for ?"

Mmmm...how things have changed....

What do they say ?

The start of any journey begins with the first footstep

[MadDogE134]

the term 'producer' has been stretched way out of proportion... so much so it practically means nothing. as for lazy? i think new technology has made musicians/artists a bit lazy so to speak. today you may do 4 or 5 takes then compile a complete take from parts... in the past you could do 20 or so takes and STILL have to keep doing it over until you got it 'right' in one complete take with no errors... it was according to how good you were. (don't think anyone enjoyed fighting with splices in tape) now if you are actually a 'performer' then you still have to do things a million times in practice as to not embarrass yourself on stage so that is the difference imo of course this is just my 2 cents which ain't worth 2 cents these days lol cheers

[antic604]

While it's true that democratisaton of music production, ie. that you don't need musical education, little-to-no hardware, no studio time with all the people that came with it, etc.; does indeed result in a much lower ratio of good vs. bad music, but if you have the courage and time to sift through all this shite you'll find real pearls and often they come from people who aren't real musicians, just that the lower access allowed them to realise their visions they otherwise wouldn't be able to. DAWs also spawned whole genres of complex, intricate music that wouldn't be possible in the old days, like the whole glitch- and bass- genres. Whether one likes that music or not is a different matter altogether, but it IS a valid form of musical expression where the focus shifts from tonal intervals (melodies) to textures, patterns and rhythm (although listen to eg. Jazzmental EP by Mindex and tell me it's not awesome MUSIC too). One important - and often overlooked - factor is that a lot of great music, new genres, new mixing techniques, etc. are created by mistake of someone who doesn't know what they're doing, or - in other words - don't follow the established rules that they're not familiar with: they'll mix things that "shouldn't" be mixed, use an instrument or device "wrong", paint a chord progression that's "not by the books"... Again, lots of it will be shit, but some of it will be brilliant so isn't it worth having the means and environment that make this possible?

So no, I don't think DAWs make people lazy - it's a tool and just like a piano or guitar it's up to person using it to make the most of it. Also, at any point in history there was good & bad music and while today perhaps the ratio is different, it's also much easier to find good music and it costs less. Imagine few centuries ago you'd have to travel half the country to listen to a concert that sucked? Or just few decades back importing a vinyl record from accross the globe only to find out it's completely not your taste?

[WotEva]

One could make the argument that those who have studied music and production, are technically the more lazy ones. You see, they draw on what they were spoon fed in their courses and just simply drip-filter that classical bollocks out into the DAW like it is second nature. All the while never truly being tested anymore, as one epic score/production blends into the next. Whilst those without that background in theory have to work harder to overcome their own lack of knowledge and musical limitations to create next weeks banger.