Looking for MPE synths this black friday

[felis]

....(Additionally e.g. in EigenD a note event doesn't have to start with a "note on" - so you can reduce latency by not having to collect the pressure information necessary to estimate velocity first - you can start sending pressure values as soon as they are generated. Then at some point a velocity event might come that percussive sounds can use - others can ignore that and fully stay at pressure modulation)....

I'm not sure I'm getting MPE. What controller are you using that can send pressure without sending a note on.

I know that when using a breath controller, for example, you can blow into it first and then strike a key, and the breath amount will affect the destination according to where its level is.
You can also program a wheel to a cc, and the effect will vary with its position when a note is struck.
But it seems that the mpe controllers I've seen don't have a way to apply pressure without sending a note on first.

[himalaya]

To make it (hopefully) a bit clearer:

- velocity should control only attack phase (time and amplitude)
- aftertouch should control only sustain

It is very easy to do in Cypher2, but it requires some prior understanding of how and why we would want to do certain things.

Velocity:
Assign velocity to the attack stage of the envelope or multiple envelopes. Do it in any way you find suitable. One typical method is to have a slow attack envelope as the starting value, and modulate it with velocity to obtain fast attack. Extra RAMP envelopes can be used and assigned to choice parameters to provide us with very sharp transients on maximum velocity. Of course, velocity can be also assigned to other parameters, not just envelope attack. So, filter drive, Amp Level, Filter envelope amounts, will all add to the way we interact with 'volume' and 'dynamics' and also 'timbre'

Aftertouch ( or in case of the Seaboard which you mention, 'Continuous Pressure'):

Assign pressure to the sustain stages of any envelope you wish to modulate. Here, it is crucial to look at the 'expression curve/envelope' and its 'slew' parameter, since these will allow you to fine tune and balance how pressure triggers this sustain stage. So for example, with a linear 'Expression Curve' shape, the response is immediate and extremely easy to obtain. However, such fluid articulation requires skill and understanding from the user, who, most often than not, uses too much force and pressure thereby reaching the maximum pressure value way too soon. So, that's why we have these expression curves and the 'slew' parameter.
So, first thing is, set the expression curve to a deep exponential shape. I like to have some 'zero modulation' zone with a flat envelope at the start, and then a smooth exponential shape going up. This allows to separate velocity and pressure (in a way), so that you can obtain velocity values without triggering pressure too early.

Then the 'Slew' parameter allows to control how 'immediate' your press gestures are on the parameters modulated by pressure.
Again, this is another feature that helps to split the velocity and pressure interaction and allow you to fine tune how the two work together.

So, to illustrate how it can work, we could have a sharp pluck, a pizz, which we can play with velocity, and then by using pressure we can turn it into a sustained sound, with as much volume control as we wish to have - no extra volume pedals are needed.

All of these techniques are used all over Equator and Cypher2 (And Strobe2).

That single ADSR (or three of them in Cypher, plus two ramp envelopes) is capable of being extremely expressive with the above techniques.

What I would point to as important features of an MPE synth, are those 'Expression Curves' (or 'mod mappers' in other synths) and the 'Slew' parameter.

Of course, the EaganMatrix engine takes it all to another level. It is a work of genius (that of the amazing Ed Eagan) and in combination with the Continuum the results can be astounding.
Having said that, I don't know how many of you here have actually used it. It is extremely powerful, but it relies in complex maths 'formulas' to do its expression assignments, and these formulas can be extremely difficult to understand and use. If we had this layer of complexity in Cypher2 staring at us all the time, it wouldn't help those who want to create their own patches easily. Cypher2 already seems to be too complex for some people, so I would say that the above methods of using velocity and pressure can give very expressive results with great ease.

However, Cypher2 has a complex set of maths functions as well, and I would imagine that these can be pressed into service for deeper control of velocity and pressure, if one so wishes.

Hope this helps.

[dreamkeeper]

@himalaya - thank you for the explanations. I think I have a quite good understanding of how those things are working. Yet I wasn't able to achieve with the Cypher trial what I wanted to do. Also looked into the math functions, but always ended up with either limited ranges or overwhelming levels (when combining modulators). But if you say, it's possible, I'll investigate further. Thanks again.

That said, I still think that by just adding an attack level parameter, these things could be accomplished much easier than by complex combinations of modulators - at least it's very easy to do with Massive (here's hoping for MPE in Massive X).

Oh, and apologies for the thread-hijacking - wasn't my intention.

[NothanUmber]

I'm not sure I'm getting MPE. What controller are you using that can send pressure without sending a note on.

I know that when using a breath controller, for example, you can blow into it first and then strike a key, and the breath amount will affect the destination according to where its level is.
You can also program a wheel to a cc, and the effect will vary with its position when a note is struck.
But it seems that the mpe controllers I've seen don't have a way to apply pressure without sending a note on first.

Sorry for being confusing here. This was about the EigenD event system which doesn't use MIDI (and thus also not MPE which is essentially MIDI). This no-MIDI-world works as long as you attach e.g. an Eigenharp or Soundplane etc. to EigenD (no MIDI involved in any step of the process, Eigenharp and Soundplane are essentially just sending high-res xyz data via a not MIDI compatible, native USB protocol that EigenD can interpret). As soon as you feed MIDI (or: MPE) into EigenD the MIDI restrictions apply again of course - to start a note you need to send a note on. What afaik e.g. Continuum does in what they call "MPE+ mode" to mitigate the problem of having to measure velocity (which introduces some latency because approximating velocity takes afaik at least 3-4 pressure measurements) is to just set velocity to constant 127, so they can send out the note on event as soon as they know the x/y position. And then only use aftertouch, CC74 and pitch beend for per-finger note modulation).

But imho MPE is a good compromise. If it's too different then the likelyhood that synth devs will adapt their synths just goes down. That way we get quite a number of great synths that can be played expressively to a high degree. Still a huge step forward from note-on-only keyboards.

@himalaya: Thanks for the great explanation, really helpful!

[himalaya]

Yet I wasn't able to achieve with the Cypher trial what I wanted to do.

Send me a PM explaining what you wish to achieve, and I'll look at it to see if it is possible. Maybe after all, it isn't. But we can try and experiment.

[dreamkeeper]

Yet I wasn't able to achieve with the Cypher trial what I wanted to do.

Send me a PM explaining what you wish to achieve, and I'll look at it to see if it is possible. Maybe after all, it isn't. But we can try and experiment.

Thanks for the offer. I think I just figured it out:

- max (strike,press) assigned to amp
- press assigned to sustain

So, quite simple, but few synths have those math functions - in this case maximum. Well, at least I can put Cypher back on my wish-list...

[Chandlerhimself]

I beleive MPowersynth is MPE compatable, but I’ not 100% sure.

[felis]

.... set velocity to constant 127, so they can send out the note on event ....

I'd like to re-phrase the question if you don't mind:

What is this 'they' that sends out a note on, if not a finger striking a surface?

[slateandash]

https://slateandash.com/products/auras

https://vimeo.com/273483209

[aMUSEd]

https://slateandash.com/products/auras

https://vimeo.com/273483209

Looks interesting, expensive though

[Tj Shredder]

We are already on page 2 and not a single mention of black Friday sales yet...

[NothanUmber]

.... set velocity to constant 127, so they can send out the note on event ....

I'd like to re-phrase the question if you don't mind:

What is this 'they' that sends out a note on, if not a finger striking a surface?

The Hakenaudio devs (aka "they" ) have written the Continuum firmware in a way that it sends out note on events with velocity 127 as soon as a finger touches the Continuum surface when the instrument is in MPE+ mode. Clearer?

We are already on page 2 and not a single mention of black Friday sales yet...

Hm, perhaps MPE is still enough of a sales argument in itself that no discounts are considered necessary
But I got a mail that D16 LuSH-101 is 40% off. It was created before MPE was a thing, but it's multitimbral, so you can use it with MPE instruments by just loading the same preset in all voices (like with other multitimbral instruments like Omnisphere, Kontakt etc.). Sounds nice!

[felis]

The Hakenaudio devs (aka "they" ) have written the Continuum firmware in a way that it sends out note on events with velocity 127 as soon as a finger touches the Continuum surface when the instrument is in MPE+ mode. Clearer?

Yes - clearer. Thank you.

EDIT: Seems a giant step backwards in a way though - " sends out note on events with velocity 127" -
like an old fashioned non-velocity sensitive keyboard.
Trading off velocity sensitivity for some other parameter control, I guess. Probably aftertouch.

[Whywhy]

Not really about this thread subject:
In Cypher2, like ED and Himalaya said : you can set the amp envelope to zero attack, and sustain to max. Set the output amp to zero and modulate it with the pressure, now, modulate the slew with the strike : result : minimal strike let the pressure define the attack decay sustain , maximum strike let the pressure works with a fast attack, about the release, adjust the lift and assign it to the amp result : a full human mpe amp envelope !

[NothanUmber]

ContinuuMini Kickstarter is online now. It is already funded within the first few hours. Very early adopter units are already gone, some early adopter ones still available ($600).
Probably the least expensive way to get the hands on an EaganMatrix synth.
Not related to them, just saying (Ok, am a fan of the Continuum since I first saw it. Prices stopped me from owning anything from them though - yet )