Dmitry Sches' Thorn VI

[BlitBit]

I really don't understand all the aggression here. All what chk071 did in the other thread was to ask why Thorn's raw oscillators sound muffled compared to other synths. This effect can be clearly heard in the wav file given on the second page of this thread:

[...]
Here's a demo using the same notes on a raw oscillator from, in order, DUNE 3, Massive, Thorn and Vacuum Pro -

http://novakill.com/stuff/OSC_TEST.wav
[...]

I then gave him a technical explanation for his observations. He then concluded that Thorn is not that much of an option for him if this is a basic characteristic of the synth.

As can be heard in many presets you can nevertheless coax some very nice sounds out of Thorn. So in the end it all depends on the requirements you have for a synth. For some of these aggressive Psytrance basslines for example Thorn would likely not be a first option.

However, I don't really understand why people have to be called "stupid" or "idiots" just because they have another opinion or want to discuss certain different aspects of a synth. There are people who are interested in the technicalities of a synth and people who just want to get some nice sounds out of a synth. I guess these two different audiences clashed here.

[chk071]

[teilo]

However, I don't really understand why people have to be called "stupid" or "idiots" just because they have another opinion or want to discuss certain different aspects of a synth.

Because there are a lot of self-absorbed immature people who like to be heard.

[BONES]

You're an idiot if you're presented with evidence that goes against your opinion and you can't or won't change or modify your opinion to align with reality.

[digitalboytn]

It's getting a little hot in here

[sergiofrias]

It's getting a little hot in here

[BlitBit]

You're an idiot if you're presented with evidence that goes against your opinion and you can't or won't change or modify your opinion to align with reality.

So, what is it then what you are doing? There's his reality ("I do not like the muffled raw oscillators and can get much use out of them for my music...") and there's your reality ("I like the sound of this synth and can perfectly integrate it into my music..."). For some reason you

• are desperately trying to make him align his reality to yours.
• are ignoring and belittling his "evidence" that he presents to explain his opinion.
• are not modifying your opinion to align with his reality.

To put it more bluntly: you are doing yourself what you are accusing him of. I leave it to you to figure out what this makes you according to your own words.

TLDR: Oh the irony...

[v1o]

I think it’s okay to have our differences but there is no need for insulting each other.

[BlitBit]

I think it’s okay to have our differences but there is no need for insulting each other.

I definitively agree. If there weren't any differences or different opinions then all internet forums would be quite boring, wouldn't they? The question is how people react to such differences. Do they use them to broaden their own horizons and to get to know other aspects of a certain topic? Do they feel threatened by them?

Another problem is that most topics are not really a moderated debate and that it's very easy to get carried away and to become personal.

[BONES]

So, what is it then what you are doing? There's his reality ("I do not like the muffled raw oscillators and can get much use out of them for my music...") and there's your reality ("I like the sound of this synth and can perfectly integrate it into my music..."). For some reason you

• are desperately trying to make him align his reality to yours.
• are ignoring and belittling his "evidence" that he presents to explain his opinion.
• are not modifying your opinion to align with his reality.

To put it more bluntly: you are doing yourself what you are accusing him of. I leave it to you to figure out what this makes you according to your own words.

No, I am hearing exactly what's there, he is hearing what he wants to hear. I can provide images of spectral analysis if it helps but nobody should need that because we all have ears, we can all hear what's going on, we can all hear the wrongheadedness of his ridiculous opinion.

I have a little test lined up that I was going to put up but I decided it would be hijacked by the usual idiots who don't like to put their money with their mouths are so I didn't bother. I might put it up over the weekend, just to show people how different their opinions are from reality. It's a good number of VSTi (currently 10 but I want to expand it while I have a few demos installed) running through two simple tests. I started out wanting to prove a particular point about a certain synth in comparison to others but I was so amazed by the results - the synths I thought would blitz it do OK but there are a couple of others I thought would struggle that do amazingly well - that it becomes a much more interesting comparison overall. It will be a blind test initially, I don't want the discussion to be about anything with a name, they will just be "1", "2", "3", etc. That way we might be able to have a reasonable discussion, maybe even form a consensus over which sounds better than what, hopefully leaving all our biases at the door. (Obviously I'll know what synths I've used but mostly I don't remember which is which, apart from the surprising ones, because I rendered the file a month or so ago.) If taken in the correct spirit, it could be fun and will definitely be educational.

[toonertik]

This image taken from Spectral Layers of your OSC_TEST clearly shows why chk071 says it sounds muffled.. the level is barley there after 3000 Hz compared to the other synths.
I have Thorn.. I think it is great.. but it's 127 harmonics/partials is a limitation of sorts.

OSC_TEST_Spectrums.jpg

But it (Thorn) can do things like this.. this is just one thorn, no drums, no external fx
https://soundcloud.com/toonertik/osc105 ... aralexpmnt

[BlitBit]

[...]
No, I am hearing exactly what's there, he is hearing what he wants to hear. I can provide images of spectral analysis if it helps but nobody should need that because we all have ears, we can all hear what's going on, we can all hear the wrongheadedness of his ridiculous opinion.

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean with "he is hearing what he wants to hear." I think it is pretty obvious from the file that you have linked that one synth stands out in a rather "unflattering" way if we just talk about the high frequency content of the raw oscillators:
OSC_TEST.wav

One should not even need to look at the spectral analysis that was posted by toonertik although it helps to get a factual and objective way to look at the different waveforms and their spectrum:

[...]

[...]

I have a little test lined up that I was going to put up but I decided it would be hijacked by the usual idiots who don't like to put their money with their mouths are so I didn't bother. I might put it up over the weekend, just to show people how different their opinions are from reality. It's a good number of VSTi (currently 10 but I want to expand it while I have a few demos installed) running through two simple tests. I started out wanting to prove a particular point about a certain synth in comparison to others but I was so amazed by the results - the synths I thought would blitz it do OK but there are a couple of others I thought would struggle that do amazingly well - that it becomes a much more interesting comparison overall. It will be a blind test initially, I don't want the discussion to be about anything with a name, they will just be "1", "2", "3", etc. That way we might be able to have a reasonable discussion, maybe even form a consensus over which sounds better than what, hopefully leaving all our biases at the door. (Obviously I'll know what synths I've used but mostly I don't remember which is which, apart from the surprising ones, because I rendered the file a month or so ago.) If taken in the correct spirit, it could be fun and will definitely be educational.

Sure, if you already got something prepared then don't let it rot on your hard drive and unleash it onto the masses. As you have said, it might be fun and educational. I would just not expect too much of a concensus though because most things related to audio rather boil down to taste and personal opinion and that's hard to form a concensus over. But it might be interesting nevertheless.

[bftucker]

My apologies for interrupting but

The Computer Music issue with Thorn CM (Issue No. July 2018) is now on sale for 1\2 price ($.1.99)! If you don't have it yet, I would recommend it.

Ok, carry on...

[v1o]

I don’t think the lack of high frequency information is an issue. I’d be more worried if there wasn’t enough girth.

[simon.a.billington]

You're an idiot if you're presented with evidence that goes against your opinion and you can't or won't change or modify your opinion to align with reality.

Man that reasoning applies to much more than just this forum!!