Transpose diatonic or chromatic - what is the difference?

[lfm]

I've been testing notation software lately, and there usually are these options.

I came across some strangeness in Finale when doing key change, that it also made transpose as the quick options there - and suddenly the harmonies changed and did not sound anything like original.

Doing the slower option through dialog and choosing chromatic at least chord harmonies did not change.

Are notes not belonging to a diatonic scale handled differently when transposing them?

Trying to understand musical theory behind things - so this is one question.
Thanks.

[BertKoor]

I think chromatic is what you intuitively expect.
Diatonic just shifts the notes on the staff without altering signature. Great for copy-pasting small snippets of melody.

But I bet others will come up with better explanations...

[fmr]

Didi you check the manual? I think it explains the function clearly;

https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fin ... MTRDLG.htm

[lfm]

Thanks.
Finale made a rightclick menu when to make key changes - and it seems it's doing something other than chromatic when using those options listed as first twelve. Then you can enter a dialog under "Other" or similar and there are options like diatonic or chromatic and also not changing pitch, which is what I sought after. I had a imported midi file, and just wanted to get rid of a lot of accidentals by making key change to staves.

Just got curious, making that choice by developers it seems most people would use key change in notation as transpose that also f**k up what is playing. I just don't get it. Some notes became like minor chord and vice versa.

Just imported a midi file which wrongly said C-major key, and wanted to fix it's notation to look right. And ran into all these weird issues.

My 16 year old Finale Guitar 2003 - it always opened the dialog with all options. So figuring this rightclick menu i Finale v26 was to fix a need for most people to quicker go about things that you do all the time.

I abandoned the idea of upgrading Finale by now, but still curious to know what is expected of diatonic transpose compared to chromatic one?

With chord tracks and all in many daws to get it right from start, and notation part at end will be done in a flash.

[lfm]

Didi you check the manual? I think it explains the function clearly;

https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fin ... MTRDLG.htm

No, I didn't - thank you.
I just noticed after a key change, that it was implicitly transposing something as well other than move every note by the same interval. Some chord became minor that was major etc.

I had this imported midi "wrongly" saying C-major, since in daw I never bothered thinking about what key anything was in - just playing/recording and exporting the midi file.

Quickest way to get it do D-major which is correct - I chose that from rightclick menu - and nothing sounding the same.

So for some reason assumption was that everybody was intending something else than I did. Doing both transpose, and on top of that - diatonic one.

So puzzled over how and why this happended. And found no way to alter that default either - looking in preferences.

Is this something to do with how various instruments are notaded, like brass instruments and such?

Or switching fram alt to tenor saxophone or things like that?
You have a stave in one look and should be noted like another instrument - is that it?

But think that is called transcribe, not transpose - if not mistaken.

[Frantz]

Chromatic transposition moves notes by semitones ignoring key.
Diatonic transposition moves notes by scale steps within the same key.

For example:
C transposed +1 chromatically = C#
C in the key C major transposed +1 diatonically = D

[lfm]

Chromatic transposition moves notes by semitones ignoring key.
Diatonic transposition moves notes by scale steps within the same key.

For example:
C transposed +1 chromatically = C#
C in the key C major transposed +1 diatonically = D

Thanks.
Yes, difference is vast.
But what happends if you have a C# note, in C-major key - does it leave it?
It's all the time you have 7-chords where notes are strictly not part of key.
In C-major you have like C7 chord with Bb in it.


No wonder diatonic sound different - and even more puzzled why that was default for key change in Finale?

I filed a ticket by MakeMusic with this
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Auw5dk599Qm6gS3AZPjsVQCJrm0m

This was before I realized it was transposing as well, when I just tried to change key without pitch change. Intervall of transpose in that particular chord were different, but between notes correct, but the loose note G at end handled very differently. It sounded f**ked up completely listening to it.

I tried to make sense of it, but failed.
Top system as imported without key(became C-major). At least correct notes.
Two middle a try to change key to D-major or B-minor - all f**ked up.
At bottom import with as correct key from start - all good.

If anybody can explain what it does - and if in any schoolbook correct - I'll be happy to have learned something new.

[Frantz]

But what happends if you have a C# note, in C-major key - does it leave it?
It's all the time you have 7-chords where notes are strictly not part of key.
In C-major you have like C7 chord with Bb in it.

That depends on the software. I don't have Finale so I can't tell you what it does. In order to do something intelligent, it needs more context like source chord and destination chord in addition to key.

The crude approach would be to force all notes to scale before transposing but that will sound bad.

[lfm]

I'm just sticking to do key change without pitch changes or transpose stuff, I think.
If doing 4/4 I think Sonar staff view is good enough for me. Really smooth to do many things that too many notations software overlook - like splitting any midi track to treble+bass bass and a split note - not questions asked. Both Finale and Notion make a fuzz over this - only on import. Or Finale has a Smart split plugins, I think it was called, that was so buggy it was unusable anyway. So many options instead of just the simplest and just do it. Best I could get was still 6 notes one a chord in right hand, with 8 support lines below - instead of flowing over to bass clef - it was the final straw with Finale for me.

Again, curious over what made Finale folks make this diatonic transpose the default - as if this is what everybody wants?

[fmr]

But what happends if you have a C# note, in C-major key - does it leave it?
It's all the time you have 7-chords where notes are strictly not part of key.
In C-major you have like C7 chord with Bb in it.

That depends on the software. I don't have Finale so I can't tell you what it does. In order to do something intelligent, it needs more context like source chord and destination chord in addition to key.

The crude approach would be to force all notes to scale before transposing but that will sound bad.

The usual transposition you are used in MIDI sequencers/DAWs is chromatic transposition, where ALL notes keep their relative intervals between each other, meaning if you choose, for example a major second transposition, ALL notes transpose a major second. Diatonic transposition, as people already told you, transpose preserving the scale degrees (it maintains the same scale the is already writen on). Scale alterations, like the C# you already mentioned are changed to the respective raised degree. Of course, since the interval relationship between the different scale degrees is not always the same, chords are changed. I remind you Finale is an advanced notation program so, it trusts users know what they are doing.

Changing the clef signature automatically transposes the music to THAT key scale (for example, if you change the key signature from C Major into G Major, the music gets transposed a fifth upwards).

To achieve what you are trying to accomplish, you would need to

1) Change the key signature from C Major to D Major. Music gets automatically transposed a major second upwards.

2) Chromatically transpose the music one major second down. Music original notes are restored, but the new key signature is preserved. Actually, it seems the music is in B minor, but the key signature is the same. Since Finale assumed C Major as the key, if you did chose B minor instead of D Major, the music would be completely changed (since the minor scale is completely different than the major scale)

The Finale Transposition dialog box has Diatonically ticked by default, but you can't consider that is the "default transposition" since you have Chromatically right below IN THE SAME DIALOG BOX. I presume Diatonically is selected by default (which is different than "being the default", IMO) because a chromatic transposition usually means changing the tonality.

[lfm]

To achieve what you are trying to accomplish, you would need to

1) Change the key signature from C Major to D Major. Music gets automatically transposed a major second upwards.

Thanks for extensive explanation.

But I don't want that - I only want to adapt notation to pitches there so it looks good with less accidentals. That is what confused me, that changing the key with key change tool active - that mandatory transpose was made as well - and even more odd is doing diatonic transpose totally ruining how it sounds.

Getting two sharp accidentals as key signature - not changing how it sounds at all - is what I intended.

Using the dialog at the very bottom of menu for key change "Other..." - there are options that I could use - and not change pitch at all.

What I do is by ear - and not thinking that much of key signatures or anything really while composing. So getting it into notation with minimum effort looking good is the overall aim.

My 16 year old Finale Guitar 2003 always popped the dialog as the "Other..." dialog in latest v26 - so there was nothing confusing about it. But v26 had these quick options on rightclick doing key change directly - and had these odd behavior as is seen in my picture above what happend to notes.

When changing key signature in daw - it never changes pitch of anything until you do transpose operations. It's a base for doing various things over scale - later.

That's pretty much what I wanted for notation software as well - don't change how it sounds - change how it looks. Split over two staves if that is the case, and insert key changes and then go into details looking at rests and stuff.

If I want to transcribe like to a brass instrument score - I choose that, and pitch does not change - only looks what a musician reading brass score is familiar with.

If I want to transpose I choose that - then altering pitches.

It was two years ago I ran MuseScore 2 - and will see how it looks today.

[fmr]

What I do is by ear - and not thinking that much of key signatures or anything really while composing. So getting it into notation with minimum effort looking good is the overall aim.

That's the problem. When you "add" or "change" a key signature in a DAW, it doesn't transpose, because it assumes you want to keep the pitches as recorded. It does that because it mainly a "recorder", not a notation editor. It just changes the way notes are spelled. Most of the times, people don't even add any key signature, and only use sharps, when the key has flats, etc.

In a notation program, each key signature has a meaning (as it does in a DAW, although in a DAW the notation is mainly just an editing window, and, with very rare exceptions - Cubase and Logic basically, not a real notation editor). That's why in Finale, when you apply the key signature, the music is transposed, and it transposes differently if you select a Major key or a minor key. Finale is NOT a DAW, so, don't expect it to behave like a DAW.

I taught you how to add the right key and preserve the notes. It's a two-step process, but it works. If you don't want to follow that and stick with that "it's not what I want" attitude, then you're helpless.

Programs don't adapt to you. It's you that have to adapt to the programs. And, as I said, an advanced notation program like Finale assumes you know what you are doing. So, it's probably not adequate to you, as a person who does things by ear. Nor is any other advanced notation program I'm aware.

[Frantz]

But I don't want that - I only want to adapt notation to pitches there so it looks good with less accidentals.

I think I finally understand what you are trying to do. I don't have Finale but I Googled it. Please try it, it might work.

To change the key without transposing, use the Key Signature Tool to change to the desired key. Before leaving the window, under Transposition Options, check "Hold Notes to Original Pitches - Enharmonically":

[lfm]

I taught you how to add the right key and preserve the notes. It's a two-step process, but it works. If you don't want to follow that and stick with that "it's not what I want" attitude, then you're helpless.

Don't be offended. I just jumped details you wrote - since it ended with a transpose dialog - which is what I want to avoid.
I also wrote that I was able to do "what I want" choosing the "Other..." option dialog and not to touch pitch was an option there - one step process.

What raised this topic and title was - WTF is the option they have on quick rightclick menu for. Could not see single use for it - so tried to learn something new.

Maybe it's something like the key change you make also has a continous property applied and all notes you enter manually slide on that scale, and easier to manage that way - I don't know.

A lot of people compose on score - so very different what you want assistance with.

Still as ignorant what it's for with the diatonic transpose forced upon you doing key change.

Programs don't adapt to you. It's you that have to adapt to the programs. And, as I said, an advanced notation program like Finale assumes you know what you are doing. So, it's probably not adequate to you, as a person who does things by ear. Nor is any other advanced notation program I'm aware.

No, that is not how I see buying tools as notation software - or any software at all.
If they don't assist me in what I try to do, but I have to fight them all the way - then maybe I look further.
Good tools are intuitive and provide good context help where you have to learn how they work.

Example
I import a midi file and see maybe 8 or more support lines above or below stave doing that - a single stave.
So I look for how do I split this into a treble and bass clef.

Good tool - Sonar 8.5 Staff view - select Layout dialog, change single and select treble+bass clef, select split note like C3 or similar - execute - and done. This I can do over and over if I like - if C3 was not the best split note.

Less good tools - like Notion and Finale - you can only split on import or record - not once imported.
Well, there is smart split plugin in Finale v26 - and worked with that for an hour - and did not succeed more than just half way, still very weird like 6 notes on treble clef chord even though I set split for lower at B2 and upper at C3. Then there were dozens of other options that I could not see any effect of - or reading manual even remotely understand how they affected result.

If Cakewalk ever responded to most voted feature requests they would have fixed some limitations on Sonar Staff view - like triplets and things. But it never happend.

So for now Finale Guitar 2003 will have to chime in a bit, doing odd time signatures in between.

And looking for something as smooth as Sonar Staff view to do it all.

I think Notion will get there - Presonus has improved integration a great deal in StudioOne by now. Transfer back and forth is rather smooth, using it like I do. I talked to Notion folks like 5 years ago, before Presonus bought Notion - and they had no clue what I was talking about "wanting rewire Notion into daw" - now it's there, almost anyway. Both audio and midi can be transfered directly to Notion.

But those doing composing on score still think Notion needs more integration - like in Sonar or Cubase.

I rather liked MagicScore and will look at that again as well as MuseScore - if problems are gone by now.

[lfm]

But I don't want that - I only want to adapt notation to pitches there so it looks good with less accidentals.

I think I finally understand what you are trying to do. I don't have Finale but I Googled it. Please try it, it might work.

To change the key without transposing, use the Key Signature Tool to change to the desired key. Before leaving the window, under Transposition Options, check "Hold Notes to Original Pitches - Enharmonically":

Thank you - exactly that is it.
That is the dialog I have even in Finale Guitar 2003 - or close to.
Doing the key change tool you got that always - and original pitch - and done.
You just got rid of all accidentals that were there from start - since now in correct key to the pitch of notes.

This dialog was hidden though in Finale v26 under very bottom menu "Other...".
And there were all possible key changes above that one on menu - and those did transpose as well as diatonic type - by default.

I just scratched my head over this - why?
Putting this as first option - this must be what large majority want to do - so I used that, at first.

Eventually I looked at "Other" and did what I wanted.