Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

[kv331]

if ARM processors are powerful enough for that. Does anyone know?

SynthMaster Player and SynthMaster One run on iOS (ARM), and they run the very same algorithms on desktop. SM1 only has zero delay feedback filter algorithms with 2 levels of nonlinearity (basic -> 3rd order polynomial approximation of tanh, normal -> tanh lookup function)

[surreal]

Not Filters alone but also the Oscillators

Filters + Oscillators are the basis that separate poor, good and fantastic synths from each other... effects are secondary but a good reverb and chorus algorithm combined with decent filters and oscillators go a faaar way!

[layzer]

There is a lot of discussion about filters lately and I wonder if high quality filters are the most important component that make the sound of a software or hardware synth so special and popular.

And if so, how complex is the process of creating high quality filters or even precise emulations of analogue ones?

nah, good sound design is what makes a synth stand out

for example how does the init sound of a synth sound compared to one that has lots of modulation to its tuning , volume, and filter?

[Tj Shredder]

Filters are only important in subtractive synthesis. And only if they find frequencies to filter out if the oscillator is delivering them... In real acoustic instruments you would have at best resonances, all the expression is done at the source, the oscillating part. Nose flutes as exception here...
That is why subtractive synths are weak at synthesizing natural instruments.
Talking about expression - for decades synths are controlled by a simple keyboard. The moment you hit the key is the only point of control. That is why envelopes and lfos are incorporated to fight the boredom of static electronic sounds.
But nowadays we have affordable expressive controllers which allow the musician to modulate the sound!
The best synthesized brass sound I ever came across was controlling the phase distortion of a simple oscillator with the aftertouch of my LinnStrument. Dead simple very expressive no filter involved...
I think that the way filters are controlled is more important than the actual filter algorithm. As there are two crucial parameters, the frequency and the Q, and on top the level, it is important how these react together. Most synth users modulate only one of them, the frequency. The different algorithms change Q and level differently if you just tweak the frequency, they also have different phase responses which is more on the subtle part of a sound. All that could be easily compensated in software. That is how different synths seam to sound different...
For me the most crucial part is the control and musical modulation by the controller. A synth that does not support MPE isn‘t worth to consider seriously. If it allows to modify the curve of modulation thats a plus... A huge choice of filters is much less important as long I can assign my expression to it easily...
If I would build a synth, I would implement an interpolation of presets. That means a single expression like aftertouch could control all parameters at once! Best as a x/y pad. Each corner has one static preset and I move around in the sound with my LinnStrument via aftertouch and the tilt of my finger...

[Urs]

Woah, let's take it down a notch. We don't need to get all personal in a thread about filters. Sheesh...

Well, the user already had a Mod warning from a previous attempt to discredit a post of mine, and then he did it again last week. As this is the third attempt to troll me in short time, I see no necessity to hold back and call bs. Mods may PM me if I'm out of line.

/moving on

[flocked]

if ARM processors are powerful enough for that. Does anyone know?

SynthMaster Player and SynthMaster One run on iOS (ARM), and they run the very same algorithms on desktop. SM1 only has zero delay feedback filter algorithms with 2 levels of nonlinearity (basic -> 3rd order polynomial approximation of tanh, normal -> tanh lookup function)

I wasn't talking about embedded OS ARMs which run either linux, iOS or other operation systems. I know that they can be extremely powerful (see the newest iPad Pro which is faster than most intel CPUs.) I was rather talking about ARMs without operation system, which currently max out at 600mhz single core.

[perfumer]

What about digital filters better than analogues? Without the 'stuff like that'? Impossible? Nobody has tried yet? Forever stuck in the 70's is the way of the future?

Look man, I know it must be hard for you to see me still post here after you called me a douche and all that, but let me break it to you: That's not what the OP asked about. Here's a small reminder of what the question was:

how complex is the process of creating high quality filters or even precise emulations of analogue ones?

Look Urs, I've been reading your posts for 10+ years, and know very well how aggressively you're self-promoting, and defending your 'brand', so to say. The accent falls on 'aggressively'.

I have the right to have my opinion about you, and you have the right to keep tabs on persons who have criticized you, and harass them through mod attention, etc., whatever.

BUT: the OP was asking about high quality filters. You start talking about artifacts, distortion, voltage bleed. This is high quality? No, this is the stuff you've been specializing on for 10+ years, which you know well, and which you're selling on the market.

If copying is your thing - and you are successful at it, maybe some other developers with more imagination than you will focus not on the 70's artifacts, but on the 'high quality', which is the topic of this thread. Obviously, you cannot sell such innovation, for two reasons: it requires, yes, imagination, R&D into uncharted territories, hence a lot of investment. And two, even if you did come up with something, it may not pay off well, because the market is skewered towards all things analog shit, which has been an artificially fueled 'craze' for quite some time now.

And you keep skewering it further with your daily posts about how unwanted artifacts are high quality, and how much know-how it takes to do it well. Ha ha ha!

[BONES]

What the f**k is wrong with someone doing a bit of shameless self-promotion? More importantly, what's it got to do with you? If you don't like, why not just f**k off and find another forum more to your liking? I'd rather have Urs here than a loser like you. I read his posts now and then I don't recall ever reading any naked self-promotion. Quite the opposite, the only times he's mentioned anything is when it's relevant to the topic at hand. (And no, I don't own any u-he products.)

Just reading the post above now, the bias in the way you choose to interpret what he has written is mind-blowing. I found his post that mentioned voltage bleed quite illuminating and if I hadn't know who he was, I would never have had the slightest inkling that we was the guy who made Zebra and Hive. You have a problem, son, you should seek professional help.

Filters are only important in subtractive synthesis. And only if they find frequencies to filter out if the oscillator is delivering them... In real acoustic instruments you would have at best resonances, all the expression is done at the source, the oscillating part.

That's not true at all. Brass players have all sorts of tricks, from placing your hand over the bell to a proper mute. Drummers place things like towels in their kick drums to filter the normal sound and you can filter (damp) guitar and other string instruments.

That is why subtractive synths are weak at synthesizing natural instruments.
Talking about expression - for decades synths are controlled by a simple keyboard. The moment you hit the key is the only point of control.

Pitch bend and mod wheels, anyone? There is a reason we call them "expression pedals", too. In any event, I think there are plenty of organists who get by just fine without any more expression than striking the key.

A synth that does not support MPE isn‘t worth to consider seriously.

Can you hear yourself, pal? That is the most arrogant, up yerself thing I've read here this year. Are you seriously suggesting that nobody ever made any decent music on a synthesiser until a couple of years ago? Spare me days, fella!

[enCiphered]

Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out
from the crowd?
There is a lot of discussion about
filters lately and I wonder... ?

If by 'crowd', you mean those who make money from
created/produced music, horses-before-carts
is the good luck plan . My next-door neighbor
is a professional musician, and while not (yet)
a 'hit maker', is successful in the local market,
nice home, nice rides, nice parties etc.

Well, actually I meant what makes the sound of the synth so popular and successful.

[BONES]

nah, good sound design is what makes a synth stand out
for example how does the init sound of a synth sound compared to one that has lots of modulation to its tuning , volume, and filter?

You can say that but I'll give you an example of a case where you couldn't be more wrong. I downloaded the Cyclop demo a few weeks ago, a synth that most people say is all about the modulation. I listened to most of the presets and I could hear potential but all the wubbering and wobbling was getting in the way. Eventually I grabbed an INIT patch, it has several different ones, and then, when I could hear the amazingly huge oscillators unencumbered by all that ridiculous modulation, I started to really get into it. It was only after making a few really nice patches (which I couldn't save) that I decided it was worth buying.

I'd say good presets get you interested in a synth but it's the experience of making a few of your own patches that I think really sells it.

[lfm]

I listened to most of the presets and I could hear potential but all the wubbering and wobbling was getting in the way. Eventually I grabbed an INIT patch, it has several different ones, and then, when I could hear the amazingly huge oscillators unencumbered by all that ridiculous modulation, I started to really get into it. It was only after making a few really nice patches (which I couldn't save) that I decided it was worth buying.

I'd say good presets get you interested in a synth but it's the experience of making a few of your own patches that I think really sells it.

I had a Roland SH-32 that had this Analog Feel wobble of digital osc as a setting to emulate analog free running oscillators.

It wasn't just a knob to turn to adjust, or?

But not sure where it was applied, like expected directly on oscillator so it affect in filter section as well, or just at the very end of the chain.

[perfumer]

What the f**k is wrong with someone doing a bit of shameless self-promotion? More importantly, what's it got to do with you? If you don't like, why not just f**k off and find another forum more to your liking? I'd rather have Urs here than a loser like you. I read his posts now and then I don't recall ever reading any naked self-promotion. Quite the opposite, the only times he's mentioned anything is when it's relevant to the topic at hand. (And no, I don't own any u-he products.)

Just reading the post above now, the bias in the way you choose to interpret what he has written is mind-blowing. I found his post that mentioned voltage bleed quite illuminating and if I hadn't know who he was, I would never have had the slightest inkling that we was the guy who made Zebra and Hive. You have a problem, son, you should seek professional help.

Sure I will, but let's first answer your post.

Look, he's misleading people - continuously. Voltage bleed & co. took years of hard work to remove from instruments. This is the lowest of low quality. And when this is transferred to digital, becomes the pinnacle of achievement? How?

I said aggressively - he's beyond criticism. Get it?

[enCiphered]

I'd say good presets get you interested in a synth but it's the experience of making a few of your own patches that I think really sells it.

Great point. And I would like to add the ease of use which is also significant to me.
I had a lot of fun making my own presets with cyclop

[discoDSP]

Filters play a crucial role, but also envelopes and oscillators are very relevant. Don't forget to get a good arp and proper modulation sources too

[recursive one]

Some of my favourite synths have not really great filters... Virus TI, Parawave Rapid. Can't really call their filter implementation being remotely on the same level as Repro or Diva. But they do great things on the oscillator level so the filters can be used, well .. for filtering - I mean just basic envelope controlled tone shaping with no extra coloration ( I'm not talking about Virus TI filter FX here because it's essentially just FX put before the filters).

On the other hand, Diva and Repro have totally amazing filters, when i think "this sound needs some heavy filter tweaking" these two are usualy my first choices.

I'm still waiting for someone to combine the power of digital oscillators similar to what can be found in Virus TI with state-of-art analogue modelled filters.

Really? I thought Virus and Rapid were known for having good filters.

I think we need to define "good filters".

Well, I'm no means a filter expert but in my experience some filters respond well to fast cutoff/resonance modulation within wide range where some other filters produce ugly sounding artifacts though they may sound quite nice at more "common" scenarios, such as envelope controlled filtering, slowly closing/opening cutoff at moderate or no resonance etc.

Also some filters may be capable of self-oscillation and filter FM and provide nice coloration to the oscillators, I think these features/characteirstics are more likely to be found in filters that have some analogue modelling in them.

Therefore when I want filtering as a part of the sound design - I mean a sound that screams "hey, listen to my filters!" - some bubbling/whistling/squelchy stuff - I typically reach for synths with analog modelled filters.

That's not to say Virus or Rapid filters are bad or useless, they definitely handle more typical filtering tasks pretty well. Virus filters also have some unique "rubbery/plasticky" qualities in them (sorry for the vague description).