"Reason sound" test :)

[antic604]

Earlier today a guy posted in Reason Users FB group that according to him Reason sounds sharper or harsher than other DAWs. The usual discussion ensued...

To get some hard data I've recreated the same simple "project" in 4 DAWs that I own (Bitwig 2.4, Live 10, Reason 10.2 and Studio One 4.1), using the same MIDI files and the same 6 VSTs with factory presets. I've not touched any faders (all at 0dB) or parameters anywhere, to ensure they play the same. All renders are 44kHz / 16bit. Standard routing applies, so eg. for Reason obviously all goes through SSL mixer, but it's untouched. Likewise there's no mixing whatsoever, no EQing, no side-chain compression, etc. so it sounds pretty shitty and there's even some clipping, because I couldn't turn down the patches

The project consists of (VST name / patch):
- pluck melody - Europa / Orbit Poly
- chords - Arturia DX7 V / Roards For Me
- bass - Synapse Dune 3 / Double Maker
- kick - NI Trk-01 Kick / Psy Zap
- hihats - U-He Zebra2 / Sleigh Hats
- master insert - Waves Abbey Road TG Mastering Chain / Mastering 1

The MIDI file, DAW project files and rendered wavs are at the link below. Let's find out if anyone can say which file is from which DAW or at least which one is Reason

Good luck!!!

https://soundcloud.com/antic604/sets/null-test

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kl8jy ... i0IAMKwRke

[antic604]

130+ views and no comment or even vote? I admire your restraint

Anyway, the samples were:
#1 - Reason 10.2
#2 - Bitwig 2.4
#3 - Live 10
#4 - Studio One 4.1

On ReasonTalk people were more eager to vote and those were the results for "which one is Reason":



So I guess this confirms the purpose of the exercise - there's no such thing as "Reason sound"

[kmonkey]

Why voting in such useless poll? We know that there is no such thing as Reason sound. We knew that for quite some time now (more then decades). People can sell that crap about different sound between DAW's possibly to new users with zero experience.

[mcbpete]

People can sell that crap about different sound between DAW's possibly to new users with zero experience.

Yep yep yep

[recursive one]

130+ views and no comment or even vote?

Ok, I voted for 4, I like this number.

Didn't listen to the aduio. I think if you tried to do actual mixing (at least tried to balance the levels) you could hear some difference, at least because of the "ssl" algos in Reason ( i assume so, don't have Reason myself) but with your test conditions ("no mixing whatsoever, no EQing, no side-chain compression, etc") I don't even quite understand what's the purpose of your test

[Burillo]

the poll doesn't show that there's no "Reason sound" - it only shows that people couldn't hear which of the DAWs on offer is Reason. the actual way to do this test, is to null the files, and take humans out of the equation entirely.

that said, it's a bad idea to do such tests with synths, because most of them have random drift, which would render null-test useless.

[chk071]

Apart from #3 somehow having more bass (listen to when the bass starts to kick in... sounds kinda muffled/mushed up), i can't hear much of a difference.

BTW, it isn't a real "null test", because you didn't null the results. Rather a "blind test".

[EnGee]

I don't think this is what people meant with "Reason's sound" in the past! I don't know what they mean by now as Reason is not a closed system as before a decade or more (version 2 to version 5 come to mind). It was even before the RE era!

It was mostly because the limited sources of sounds and effects. But now, it is strange to read such a thing (Reason's sound! Unless you just keep using Subtractor and Malstrom only!). I don't see any point for the comparison in the poll to be honest. It would be a better poll to ask IMO if people still think there is a Reason's sound? And why they think there is or there isn't.

[chk071]

I personally always thought that the "Reason sound" had more to do with the thin plastic sound of the Reason included synth devices (to put it willingly controversial ). Even Kong suffers a bit from that, IMO. At least i think it's good now that Reason supports both RE, and VST. Although i still ask myself "Quo vadis, Propellerhead?".

[Burillo]

plenty of people still think the DAWs have a sound, as well as plenty of people hear saturation in completely clean effects. a lot of people simply don't have any respect for the "engineering" part of "audio engineering", and blindly "trust their ears". well, i got news for them - ears can, and do lie. on the other hand, spectrum analyzer doesn't, nor does the null test, or other scientific tests. i wish more people did more of those, we wouldn't be having these stupid threads.

(that said, plenty of people also misinterpret the results of such tests - the above mentioned random drift of software instruments comes to mind, people see a difference but incorrectly attribute it to the DAW in use, when the DAW wouldn't even null with itself under such circumstances)

[chk071]

Well... you hear very contradictive statements about that. Many people even suggest to put away analyzers completely, and mix solely with your ears. I'd say the truth is sort of in the middle. For example, i'd always triple check, stop for the day, and listen on another day. And then, if you think you figured out problematic frequencies, or parts in your music, use an analyzer.

Frankly, i also thought the one or the other time that a DAW has "its sound". For example, i was pretty sure for some time that Reaper and Cubase sound differently. Null test, AFAIK, typically null to up to -80 dB. Which means that, below that, there IS a difference, if i understood it correctly. Does that mean that you necessarily hear and perceive the difference? No. It still is there, otherwise, it would null completely, i guess?

[Burillo]

Well... you hear very contradictive statements about that. Many people even suggest to put away analyzers completely, and mix solely with your ears. I'd say the truth is sort of in the middle. For example, i'd always triple check, stop for the day, and listen on another day. And then, if you think you figured out problematic frequencies, or parts in your music, use an analyzer.

nowhere did i say anything about mixing with an analyzer. what i was referring to is specifically analysis. whether Reason as a DAW has "a sound" is a question of analysis, and, contrary to mixing decisions (which are subjective in a lot of cases), it has a definitive, objectively quantifiable answer. yet, we routinely see people foregoing using analysis tools to perform analysis, in favor of just using their ears.

Frankly, i also thought the one or the other time that a DAW has "its sound". For example, i was pretty sure for some time that Reaper and Cubase sound differently. Null test, AFAIK, typically null to up to -80 dB. Which means that, below that, there IS a difference, if i understood it correctly. Does that mean that you necessarily hear and perceive the difference? No. It still is there, otherwise, it would null completely, i guess?

that depends on what exactly you are null-testing. within a DAW, there is potential for things to null completely, down to -inf, within different DAWs - only if you didn't do any processing whatsoever (that includes - touching faders, resampling etc.). some plugins also introduce randomness (software synth drift, u-he Satin introduces uncorrelated noise, samplers do round-robin and humanization etc.) that can affect the result. even accounting for all of that, things may still not null if you're setting your faders slightly differently, or if the DAW automation is slightly different (i.e. not sample-accurate), etc. - a million other things can influence the result. so just because things don't null down to -inf doesn't mean they aren't identical. moreover, if you just shift your audio by 1 sample, things will not null at all, but that doesn't mean they aren't identical either, so you have to be careful around phase changes and delays as well.

that said, -80dB is pretty much noise floor. differences like these are what you get when you're comparing 32-bit vs 64-bit float summing engine, or different resampling algorithms, or some such. in other words, it's not a difference worth considering, because it's not audible.

[chk071]

Fair enough.

[xbitz]

originally (even before the rack extension era) Reason has closed ecosystem so simply wasn't able to recreate proper bass in it that was the sound of Reason (was totally weak and useless on subfreqs), nowadays VST vs hardware based synths has the same problem, try to recreate these sounds in movement (not just on solid points)

using software based synths especially in the lower regions

[Burillo]

i don't hear anything out of the ordinary on this video. any decent softsynth can get those sounds IMO.