Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

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Psychlist1972
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Sep, 2015 from Near Annapolis, Maryland, USA

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:02 am

DarkStar wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:07 am
Humour me - why "Fiber"?
In short, fibers are lightweight threads. The name makes sense in that context :)

Threads, Fibers, Processes (listed in order of increasing overhead) are ways to handle parallel execution in an operating system.

For the rest: if you try out this Insider build (on a non-critical PC), and have run up against the FLS limit in the past, please do post your results.

Pete
Pete Brown - Microsoft
@pete_brown | soundclound.com/psychlist1972

chk071
KVRAF
18600 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:00 pm

AsPeeXXXVIII wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:11 am
For once, Win10 is getting an actually good update.
Don't be such a curmudgeon. :P Windows 10 has seen some nice (feature) updates.

metamorphosis
KVRAF
3774 posts since 8 Jan, 2005 from Hamilton, New Zealand

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:56 pm

Scotty wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:47 pm
I get the humour but to clarify... you always could load as many of the same plugin as your computer could handle. The FLS limit applies to the maximum number of unique plugins.. One instance of one ping only uses only 1 FLS slot... 4000 instances of One Ping Only still only uses 1 FLS slot.
"Now, for convenience and ease of installation, most plug-in authors statically link that runtime. That means that the runtime code is included inside the plugin DLL, instead of referenced from another DLL. So, if you have 50 different unique plugins loaded in the DAW, and each plugin statically links the runtime, there will be 50 copies of that runtime code loaded into the DAW process. Each copy of that runtime code will allocate one or two FLS slots, so you can end up with between 50 and 100 FLS slots used just by the runtime.

If the plugin dynamically links the runtime (that is, the plugin references a runtime DLL that is installed with the plugin, or is already present on the system), only as many copies of the runtime will be loaded in the DAW process as there are unique versions of that runtime."

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Psychlist1972
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Sep, 2015 from Near Annapolis, Maryland, USA

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:02 pm

metamorphosis wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:56 pm
Scotty wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:47 pm
I get the humour but to clarify... you always could load as many of the same plugin as your computer could handle. The FLS limit applies to the maximum number of unique plugins.. One instance of one ping only uses only 1 FLS slot... 4000 instances of One Ping Only still only uses 1 FLS slot.
"Now, for convenience and ease of installation, most plug-in authors statically link that runtime. That means that the runtime code is included inside the plugin DLL, instead of referenced from another DLL. So, if you have 50 different unique plugins loaded in the DAW, and each plugin statically links the runtime, there will be 50 copies of that runtime code loaded into the DAW process. Each copy of that runtime code will allocate one or two FLS slots, so you can end up with between 50 and 100 FLS slots used just by the runtime.

If the plugin dynamically links the runtime (that is, the plugin references a runtime DLL that is installed with the plugin, or is already present on the system), only as many copies of the runtime will be loaded in the DAW process as there are unique versions of that runtime."
Unique plugin DLLs, not plugin instances.

50 instances of the same plugin will not use any more FLS slots unless the plugin code allocates them on purpose. So 50 instances of a plugin that uses 1 FLS slot, will continue to use only 1 FLS slot.

But 50 *different* plugins, each using 1 FLS slot, will use 50 FLS slots, even if each one is used on many tracks.

Hope that makes more sense.

Pete
Pete Brown - Microsoft
@pete_brown | soundclound.com/psychlist1972

Scotty
KVRAF
1725 posts since 23 Dec, 2002

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:28 am

Thank you Pete. Nice to have an expert confirmation. Appreciated.
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Psychlist1972
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Sep, 2015 from Near Annapolis, Maryland, USA

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:41 pm

(duplicating a post to this thread so folks aren't left out)

If you use the FLS Checker plugin on the new 18312 preview build, it will show a value of 128 no matter how many plugins you have loaded. Here it is running in Bitwig Studio with a ton of stuff already in the project:

Image

So I wrote a little console app to verify the increase.

Code

Image

Output (running under the debugger, which takes a handful of slots itself)

Image

Figured folks might want to see the proof. :)

Pete
Pete Brown - Microsoft
@pete_brown | soundclound.com/psychlist1972

ThatsMeAgain
KVRer
2 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:10 am

More and more people wrote, there are no real benefits from this extension, because no one have so large/complex projects, which will hit the old value of 128. So where exactly is the great improvement for 99% of all DAW users?

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Psychlist1972
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Sep, 2015 from Near Annapolis, Maryland, USA

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:27 am

ThatsMeAgain wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:10 am
More and more people wrote, there are no real benefits from this extension, because no one have so large/complex projects, which will hit the old value of 128. So where exactly is the great improvement for 99% of all DAW users?
People who do a lot in the box run up against this all the time. Forums are full of people lamenting the limit of 128. Why? Load up something like the Arturia Analog lab, which uses 45 slots, or any of the processing plugins like the iZotope stuff.

This is especially true for composers and others who want to duplicate tracks and try different plugins to see which ones work better for the sound they're trying to get.

This problem was only getting worse as DAW computers got more powerful.

So it may not benefit you personally, or maybe it will in the future and you won't realize it, because you're able to just happily continue working on your project.

Pete
Pete Brown - Microsoft
@pete_brown | soundclound.com/psychlist1972

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Psychlist1972
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Sep, 2015 from Near Annapolis, Maryland, USA

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:28 am

ThatsMeAgain wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:10 am
More and more people wrote, there are no real benefits from this extension, because no one have so large/complex projects, which will hit the old value of 128. So where exactly is the great improvement for 99% of all DAW users?
BTW, where are people writing that? Links?
Pete Brown - Microsoft
@pete_brown | soundclound.com/psychlist1972

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pljones
KVRAF
6392 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:25 am

Can I just ask for some clarification that's vaguely on topic...

I load up my DAW then load up about 80 copies of MuTool's MUX into separate tracks. Each of those loads separate combinations of VSTs. I'm assuming, even in this kind of situation, (a) all the MUX DLLs are sharing their FLS slots and (b) where multiple instances of the same VST DLL get loaded by MUX, they will share their FLS slots, too? Or does that depend on how MUX instantiates the VSTs?

chk071
KVRAF
18600 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:33 am

ThatsMeAgain wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:10 am
More and more people wrote, there are no real benefits from this extension, because no one have so large/complex projects, which will hit the old value of 128. So where exactly is the great improvement for 99% of all DAW users?
I've read from people who hit the limit. Hard to believe, but, hey, just because i will probably never hit it doesn't mean others won't do. But, really, it's hard to believe that people use more than 100 instances of (all) different plugins. :o

chk071
KVRAF
18600 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:35 am

Psychlist1972 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:27 am
ThatsMeAgain wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:10 am
More and more people wrote, there are no real benefits from this extension, because no one have so large/complex projects, which will hit the old value of 128. So where exactly is the great improvement for 99% of all DAW users?
People who do a lot in the box run up against this all the time. Forums are full of people lamenting the limit of 128. Why? Load up something like the Arturia Analog lab, which uses 45 slots, or any of the processing plugins like the iZotope stuff.

This is especially true for composers and others who want to duplicate tracks and try different plugins to see which ones work better for the sound they're trying to get.

This problem was only getting worse as DAW computers got more powerful.

So it may not benefit you personally, or maybe it will in the future and you won't realize it, because you're able to just happily continue working on your project.

Pete
Ah... good point.

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Psychlist1972
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Sep, 2015 from Near Annapolis, Maryland, USA

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:58 am

chk071 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:33 am
ThatsMeAgain wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:10 am
More and more people wrote, there are no real benefits from this extension, because no one have so large/complex projects, which will hit the old value of 128. So where exactly is the great improvement for 99% of all DAW users?
I've read from people who hit the limit. Hard to believe, but, hey, just because i will probably never hit it doesn't mean others won't do. But, really, it's hard to believe that people use more than 100 instances of (all) different plugins. :o
It's easy to hit if you use certain combinations.

From what others have reported, Cubase uses around 33 slots. Arturia Analog lab uses 45. iZotope Ozone uses around 10. Right there, you're at 88 slots used out of 128. You can see how just a few more plugins might put you at the limit.

Remember also: plugins on frozen or disabled tracks are still loaded in memory. So if you're trying different combinations of things, you can continue to use up more slots.

Also keep in mind that instances don't count. You can have 100 instances of a plugin and still use only one or two slots. It's about code loaded in memory. Code for a plugin is loaded only once.

Pete
Pete Brown - Microsoft
@pete_brown | soundclound.com/psychlist1972

User avatar
Psychlist1972
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Sep, 2015 from Near Annapolis, Maryland, USA

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:01 am

pljones wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:25 am
Can I just ask for some clarification that's vaguely on topic...

I load up my DAW then load up about 80 copies of MuTool's MUX into separate tracks. Each of those loads separate combinations of VSTs. I'm assuming, even in this kind of situation, (a) all the MUX DLLs are sharing their FLS slots and (b) where multiple instances of the same VST DLL get loaded by MUX, they will share their FLS slots, too? Or does that depend on how MUX instantiates the VSTs?
It depends on how many processes you have. As far as I can tell, MuTools MUX is a "normal" plugin, in that it loads everything in-process in the DAW. Therefore, you can think of it and its loaded DLLs just like you would any other plugins. The DLLs will be loaded in memory only once, and the number of FLS slots consumed will not grow once you add new instances.

If each of the MUX DLLs is statically linked to the runtime, they'll each use a slot or two. Pretty sure this is why the Arturia stuff uses so many slots.

Pete
Pete Brown - Microsoft
@pete_brown | soundclound.com/psychlist1972

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pljones
KVRAF
6392 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Re: Microsoft Windows 10 Update Will Let You Use More Virtual Instruments & Effects In Your DAW

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:08 am

Cheers. What about bridging between a 64bit host and 32bit VSTs? Presumably the 64bit bridge VST itself would only use one set of resources. But in this case, each bridged 32bit VST would be in a separate memory space, right, and not shared? Would each 32bit VST then use its own slots?

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