Who would be up for a Batch Tagging tool for Omnisphere third party libs?

[noiseboyuk]

The sheer shambles and mess of standards, with every developer doing their own thing, means finding anything in practice is absurdly difficult. I figure I'd rather put my money into making better use of what I have than buying any more third party libraries. So I dream of OmniTag.

Something a bit like this, which is set to look at a typically non-compliant 3rd party library called Wonder Library:



The basic principle - to tag third party libraries along the same conventions as the factory ones, making searching All libraries much simpler. OmniTag would read the factory databases to find out what tags go with what as far as Spectrasonics conventions go (nb - it would be unable to modify the factory library). Then it would guide the user to change any tags that are not compliant - red is non-compliant, green is good. Everything optional and you'd be able to manually change tags also. It would be able to rename folders and patches also.

Thinking of approaching someone who could write this kind of batch XML editor. Likely Windows only at least initially, as apparently adding Mac would more than double the cost. Not sure yet if it would be something to crowd-fund or me stump up and sell it for a low fee, something like $20, to recoup costs.

Any interest out there in KVR land for this sort of thing? Any comments / thoughts?

[Touch The Universe]

Yes, even better, to work with other vstis too, like dune, etc. If that complicates it too much, I'll take it just for Omni and still be very happy

[jbraner]

As long as fhis can batch process a bunch at a time, and does the Spectrasonics patches - I'd be up for it.

[noiseboyuk]

TTU - Only Omni I'm afraid, as the patch formats are unique to it.

jbraner - It would be able to process lots / all the patches from a library at a time yes. However much I'd like it to, sadly it couldn't do the factory library for three compelling reasons - 1, the factory databases cannot be modified externally or else they just vanish in the Omni browser; 2, all the data would be wiped every time Spectrasonics update the database themselves and 3, it would I think violate the EULA.

It is a shame, no mistake about it, but I figure the only practical way forward is to keep in step with what they do - and lobby them to tag better!

[DrGonzo]

To say that the tagging system in Omnisphere is a total catastrophe, is being kind. Like 20 tags for Kalimbas and one for Synth Bass. The good thing about Spectrasonics is that they absolutely listen to their customers. If enough people nag directly to them about the tagging system it wouldn't surprise me if that would come in a v3.

Please please please - write to Spectrasonics and let your opinion be heard.

/C

[noiseboyuk]

DrGonzo - absolutely, except I think it needn't wait for a far-off v3 for some big improvements at least. The most recent one I spotted was that when they re-named the entire category Synth Pluck to Synth Short, and migrated all the Pluck sounds to it, they forgot to then tag any of them with the word "pluck". So the only way you can search for a synth pluck is a basic string search. There are some very easy wins for them to have.

The categories and types are really in need of a drastic overhaul though, since v2 made them far worse and seemingly each update made them worse again. Mixing up nouns and adjectives, making them mutually exclusive, is just the height of crazyness. You now get Synth Long and Synth Poly - pick one. Just one.

The best solution for now for us is to be using that shift-click more often on the categories to take in all the things it might be.

[DrGonzo]

It's true - you can see them trying to improve the tagging/browser but at this point I honestly feel they should just burn down the whole thing and start over from scratch again. Nested tags. Bass goes to acoustic, synth, electric etc - and those goes to special articulations etc. Would make tagging easier and a lot easier for users to find stuff in.

(totally OT - see that you use a Babyface. Just bought my second one. Now when the pro model is out you can snag the old one for real cheap).

/C

[Touch The Universe]

It's a pain to press shift and space bar for every space needed to filling out information in the patch description. Fix that and I'd be 50% more happy.

[Lotuzia]

The sheer shambles and mess of standards, with every developer doing their own thing, means finding anything in practice is absurdly difficult. I figure I'd rather put my money into making better use of what I have than buying any more third party libraries. So I dream of OmniTag.

Something a bit like this, which is set to look at a typically non-compliant 3rd party library called Wonder Library:



The basic principle - to tag third party libraries along the same conventions as the factory ones, making searching All libraries much simpler. OmniTag would read the factory databases to find out what tags go with what as far as Spectrasonics conventions go (nb - it would be unable to modify the factory library). Then it would guide the user to change any tags that are not compliant - red is non-compliant, green is good. Everything optional and you'd be able to manually change tags also. It would be able to rename folders and patches also.

Thinking of approaching someone who could write this kind of batch XML editor. Likely Windows only at least initially, as apparently adding Mac would more than double the cost. Not sure yet if it would be something to crowd-fund or me stump up and sell it for a low fee, something like $20, to recoup costs.

Any interest out there in KVR land for this sort of thing? Any comments / thoughts?

A possible problem is that the base factory criterias/tags can be seen as questionable, both in the naming conventions, and in the retained categories.

Bells and vibes are both percussion, but the 1st one is mainly inharmonic, and the second one is tuned (with a possible attack inharmonic transcient, irrelevant here); There are no Brass, nor Woodwinds,wich is annoying ? Keyboards AND organs, but no piano ? Synth bass, but no synth lead ? Transition effects, but no other effects ? Do 'Retroland' refers to long analog synths, short 80s digital synths, Mellotrons, or pianoforte, Thelarmonium, medieval dulcimer ? We don't know. and so on.

The possible solutions are to design -working and extensive- main categories, and then working sub categories. ( Like in StiX, Snare is a main category, and Rimshots, SideSticks, Electronic, Acoustic, and ... Claps are sub categories of Snares,Or Ride/Splash/Crash are subcategories of 'Cymbals')

As such in Omni : A main Percussions category might be decided.
Drums, Bells, Electronic, Orchestral, Hand Percussions could be some viable subcategories, when Vibes, Marimbas etc would be subcate of a general Mallets category.

Keyboards could be divided into Pianos, E Pianos, Organs, Harpsichords, accordions, and Synth keys.
Guitars between Acoustic, Electric, Keytars etc.

And the sum of all instruments top categories should be designed so that it covers the whole spectrum of possible orchestra instruments (An orchestra not only seen in the classical sense, but simply as a collection of some instruments playing together)

But for this, the entire system should be revampped from scratch, and all presets retagged in the factory library. A bit of an Herculean task.

[noiseboyuk]

But for this, the entire system should be revampped from scratch, and all presets retagged in the factory library. A bit of an Herculean task.

Indeed - and, save petitioning Spectrasonics, beyond the scope of what's possible for end users as discussed above.

Again, my own view is that whatever Spectrsonics do, we're stuck with it. Making 3rd party consistent with them warts and all is the only sane way I can think of to find patches from both in a single search. And at least built into OmniTag would be the notion that it will keep pace with Spectrasonics' future changes - if they build a better system, then its just case of running the app once more.

[Richard deHove]

Relevant Omnisphere batch tagging thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=357530&p=7259301#p7259301

[Gamma-UT]

Thinking of approaching someone who could write this kind of batch XML editor. Likely Windows only at least initially, as apparently adding Mac would more than double the cost.

I would guess that the simplest way to do this is to use regular XML tools to suck the attributes into a SQLite or MySQL database, store and edit them within the database and export the various affected .index files after each conversion step. Doing it cross-platform shouldn't be that tricky, though there's a lot of fiddly work involved in making sure that the changes don't conflict with the values Omnisphere expects, making sure that the tool writes to the right .index files and dealing with updates overwriting the altered tags. But the XML-database-XML type stuff mostly already exists. The stuff in between is all SQL queries/updates.

[noiseboyuk]

Relevant Omnisphere batch tagging thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=357530&p=7259301#p7259301

It's better than nothing for sure, but it's very clunky and you're working blind compared to what the factory library uses. Was grateful for it though, and it set me off thinking about OmniTag.

Thanks Gamma, useful stuff. I'm kinda banking on whoever eventually does the coding will tell me how they want to it.

[Echoes in the Attic]

But for this, the entire system should be revampped from scratch, and all presets retagged in the factory library. A bit of an Herculean task.

Indeed - and, save petitioning Spectrasonics, beyond the scope of what's possible for end users as discussed above.

Again, my own view is that whatever Spectrsonics do, we're stuck with it. Making 3rd party consistent with them warts and all is the only sane way I can think of to find patches from both in a single search. And at least built into OmniTag would be the notion that it will keep pace with Spectrasonics' future changes - if they build a better system, then its just case of running the app once more.

I think everyone at Spectrasonics was on drugs when they designed the tagging system for Omnisphere. And then third party sound designers ran with it and got even crazier. Actually my real theory is that Spectrasonics made it intentionally convoluted and confusing so that over time users would discover new sounds they never saw before. New entire categories of sounds even! Which, you know, keeps it fresh.

By the way, for Komplete Kontrol users who like to browse Omnisphere patches, a good way to go to get sensible tagging is the freelance sounds Omnisphere pack:
https://freelancesoundlabs.com/index.ph ... ctrasonics
He also does tons of third party libraries for Omnisphere:
https://freelancesoundlabs.com/index.ph ... s-librarys

These have the added bonus of the sound previews as well of course, as well as many parameters being ready for automation.

[noiseboyuk]

Echoes - it's a shame Komplete Kontrol is such a truly terrible piece of software, that might have been an interesting way to go (muses... wonder if anyone else will develop a proper browser that can read NKS?). I also see they're only up to v2.2, which highlights the problem (I presume) that every time Spectrasonics updates their patches, it will break compatibility.