Hive 2 is coming!

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Stefken
KVRian
912 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:54 am

Hink wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:19 am
Again it happens, I say stop people keep it up.
...
The worst part is this is a thread for a dev announcing a new version, the disrespect to him is what upsets me.
Hello Hink, to be clear about what you're talking?
I saw in my announcements that Bones had quoted me. And I answered him. I didn't see your earlier post as I did not open the thread but just answered via the announcements system that pointed me directly to the post .
That's it. I don't use harsh language either.

As far as the dev concerns. I've been doing graphic and UI design professionaly for quite some time, so as I see it he's getting free professional advice. My advice to the dev was constructive, and so was his answer.

So are we talking about harsh language here? I don't normally do that.

Stefken
KVRian
912 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:58 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:45 pm
BONES wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:04 pm
Look at the areas where I've put the orange dots - lots of wasted space.
Negative space is a thing, and for a very good reason.
Exactely, a mix needs to breathe. And so does an user interface.

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Hink
Rad Grandad
28071 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:02 am

Stefken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:54 am
Hink wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:19 am
Again it happens, I say stop people keep it up.
...
The worst part is this is a thread for a dev announcing a new version, the disrespect to him is what upsets me.
Hello Hink, to be clear about what you're talking?
I saw in my announcements that Bones had quoted me. And I answered him. I didn't see your earlier post as I did not open the thread but just answered via the announcements system that pointed me directly to the post .
That's it. I don't use harsh language either.

As far as the dev concerns. I've been doing graphic and UI design professionaly for quite some time, so as I see it he's getting free professional advice. My advice to the dev was constructive, and so was his answer.

So are we talking about harsh language here? I don't normally do that.
you're fine, I'm sorry you felt caught up in it. I deleted all the posts, I know you were on topic (thank you).

edit: for everyone else, if I deleted your post and you have not yet received a pm from me you totally disrespected my request again, uncalled for...I asked it to stop and if you kept it going you are part of the problem.
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

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mrj1nx
KVRist
467 posts since 29 Nov, 2015

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:53 am

So back on topic the first post states the following info:
This upgrade will have a completely overhauled user interface, new modulation sources, NKS support, and more... Hive 2 will be backwards compatible with Hive 1.x.

Has there been any more details since then? Im gonna say the obvious even though I think I know the answer, will it have wavetable import from wav? (I know theres a scripting tool and so forth, but for us "drag and drop" kind of users). I guess it would be a pretty big can of worms of stuff that comes along with it.

PieBerger
KVRist
190 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:01 am

mrj1nx wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:53 am
So back on topic the first post states the following info:
This upgrade will have a completely overhauled user interface, new modulation sources, NKS support, and more... Hive 2 will be backwards compatible with Hive 1.x.

Has there been any more details since then? Im gonna say the obvious even though I think I know the answer, will it have wavetable import from wav? (I know theres a scripting tool and so forth, but for us "drag and drop" kind of users). I guess it would be a pretty big can of worms of stuff that comes along with it.
There's been no mention of a drag and drop, but really importing via script is no big deal it's a couple of lines of code or you could just have a folder that you drop the WAV tables to and you access them via the browser.
Always Read the Manual!

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Urs
u-he
23367 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:09 am

It imports .wav just fine... I guess drag'n'drop for WTs would be nice as well, but isn't a priority atm.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
14978 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:12 am

mrj1nx wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:53 am
Has there been any more details since then? Im gonna say the obvious even though I think I know the answer, will it have wavetable import from wav?
Do you mean resynthesis? Then no...

Using existing wavetables in wav format... You can put any wavetables (both Serum and Icarus work) into the wavetable directory and access them that way

You can also export Zebra wavetables now and use those as well.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7725 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:08 pm

Stefken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:22 am
No, I don't . It's cramped without much visual hierarchy or order, that's not the same thing.
That's just the result of design decisions, not problems created by the hexagon itself. You can see in DUNE and Sylenth 1 that the problem is the same with a rectangular screen. Worse even, as those instruments' screens are much smaller than Hive's (for no good reason). I think Hive has a much better balance between the elements than they do and I also think the GUI designer(s) have done a great job of utilising it fully and not wasting space.
The hexagon also limits other sections; the filter and osc sections in the new version are also cramped as a consequence.
Are you talking about v1.2? Neither the osc or filter sections are cramped in any way. Quite the opposite, they are very well laid out.
It basically limits the whole design in so many ways.
I think it facilitates the design. Again, these are all just design decisions and without the hexagon, I think Hive would not be nearly as usable as it is. Either that or the GUI would be much larger. What it does is it separates the important stuff from the more fiddly bits and puts all the major functions where they can be most easily accessed. You could make an entire album's worth of patches without having to touch anything inside the hexagon. It's where all the sonic gravy lives, the meat and potatoes is out where you can get to it. In my book it is very clever design, well executed.

I look at some of the skins that ditch the hexagon and they are all awful, an absolute dog's breakfast with zero style. If anything, they prove the value of the hexagon.
fmr wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:23 am
Therefore, a loopable MSEG can do whatever an LFO can and more.
Of course it can but, as your post shows, it requires considerably more fart-arsing about to achieve it, where having drawable LFO shapes requires only minimal effort to achieve the same result. I prefer to leave envelopes to be envelopes and LFOs to be LFOs. A one size fits all solution is not ideal in most situations.
Stefken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:58 am
Exactely, a mix needs to breathe. And so does an user interface.
There is a BIG difference between making space in a UI and leaving a bit blank. e.g. Look at the areas I highlighted in the image next to the Filter Key Track knobs. If that space was being used as a design element, to allow the UI to "breathe", then the Key Track knob would be plonked right in the middle of it, not crammed up next to the Mod Env controls with a big space on the other side. It's just left-over space that's a consequence of the GUI design, probably someone deciding that having all the controls on a grid was more important than providing any negative space to separate Key Track from the modulation controls. They are all just design decisions and I think they work better here than in 99% of other VSTi I use. I'd hate to see that thrown out just because some people want to blame the odd shape for problems created by other design decisions.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
14978 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:06 pm

Stefken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:22 am
No, I don't . It's cramped without much visual hierarchy or order, that's not the same thing. The ARP is divided into 2 rows while one row would be much better. (The obvious solution while still clinging to this hexagon design would be to move the arp down to one of the lower sections which have plenty of horizontal space as you and also I suggested). The hexagon also limits other sections; the filter and osc sections in the new version are also cramped as a consequence. It basically limits the whole design in so many ways.
I find Hive to be the easiest synth to work with of my various synth plugins. One of the powerful features of Hive is how fast and efficient it is. The visual appearance of the 'spaceship' style has never been my favorite but getting from point a to point b is great in Hive.

Yes, there are some things that can be improved. You have pointed a few things out. However, I think you are over dramatizing it and making it sound terrible when it is already very good and could use some minor improvements.

Also, moving the Arp down to the keyboard section means you lose drag-n-drop from the Matrix to the Arp/Seq section. It needs to stay in the hexagon.

And yes, the hexagon is not the most efficient shape. But so what. It is good enough. Again we are talking about minor percentage points. And I mean no offense to you, but it seems to me that you are the one clinging to the hexagon (in the negative sense). Your own design sense doesn't like it and so you are exaggerating its negative aspect. On the positive side, it makes Hive immediately recognizable. I can understand why u-he might stick with it.

There is no one superior design philosophy. Diversity and difference is itself a valuable design aesthetic.

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Delta Sign
KVRian
654 posts since 22 Jun, 2018

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:34 pm

Yeah, I think we can all agree that the Hexagon isn't the most efficient way of using space. However, there are many more things to interface design than efficient use of space, brand recognition being one of them, which is exactly what the hexagon does, it sets Hive apart from other synths.

Is it a little bit gimmicky? Certainly. Is that a big deal? No, certainly not. It's still very easy to tell where everything is and what the settings are.

There is no reason to get all worked up over the design of a freakin' synthesizer.

Stefken
KVRian
912 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:25 am

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:06 pm
And yes, the hexagon is not the most efficient shape. But so what. It is good enough. Again we are talking about minor percentage points. And I mean no offense to you, but it seems to me that you are the one clinging to the hexagon (in the negative sense).
With all respect, but I have a lot more experience in this field than you and I 'see' at lot more than you.
So yes, the hexagon is an obvious flaw that stares me in the face. And we are not talking about minor precentages points, you just can't see it. It's also no coincidence that Plugmon, who makes some excellent skins, has the exact same position towards the hexagon.

I must admit. I have somewhat the same experience towards people fussing about compressors, compressor settings, tape saturators and such. I must admit that the differences TO ME are often pretty subtle. Still there are hundred and hundreds of pages of people fussing about the differences between them.

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:06 pm
And yes, the hexagon is not the most efficient shape. But so what.
You made my case. The "so what" expression is the expression of someone who doesn't care all that much. Fair enough, but why should I care then about your statement?
It's people fussing over the exact rendering of an optical lens, the exact sound of oscillators and filters,... that bring quality to products. I guess they call it field of expertise. :wink:

You might also recall that I also pointed out the good elements in the Hive 2.0 UI.

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Teksonik
KVRAF
12209 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:46 am

Stefken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:54 am
I've been doing graphic and UI design professionaly for quite some time, so as I see it he's getting free professional advice.
Why not make a new skin or a mock-up of your ideas ? Pictures speak louder than words. Perhaps you can convert other people into disliking the Hexagon as much as you do.

Other people have made skins for Hive. Shouldn't be that hard for a professional UI designer... :wink:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Stefken
KVRian
912 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:26 am

Teksonik wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:46 am
Stefken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:54 am
I've been doing graphic and UI design professionaly for quite some time, so as I see it he's getting free professional advice.
Why not make a new skin or a mock-up of your ideas ? Pictures speak louder than words. Perhaps you can convert other people into disliking the Hexagon as much as you do.

Other people have made skins for Hive. Shouldn't be that hard for a professional UI designer... :wink:
It did itch but it don't think it's going to happen.
Moneywise it would be a bad investment in hours.
I would have to be a labor of love but as I am not going to buy Hive..., no.
I guess someone else will have to do it.

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Teksonik
KVRAF
12209 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:43 am

Stefken wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:26 am
Moneywise it would be a bad investment in hours.
Someone is already selling Hive skins so there is an opportunity to get a return on your investment of time.... if your final product can compete:

http://www.satyatunes.com/web/spartan-gray.php
Stefken wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:26 am
but as I am not going to buy Hive..., no.

Oh ok you're not going to buy Hive so there is no point for you being in the Hive thread.

For the record even though Bones and I have never seen eye to eye on anything for the last 18 years I do have to give the devil his due. Bones has actually created plugin GUIs and in fact even skinned an entire DAW several times. For example his Xtro Skin for Orion was not only very good looking it was also highly functional as well.

So I'm more likely to listen to someone who has actually proven his skills in the area of UI design over someone who just wants to talk about it........ :wink:

Have a nice day..... :tu:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Urs
u-he
23367 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Hive 2 is coming!

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:45 am

Stefken wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:25 am
So yes, the hexagon is an obvious flaw that stares me in the face.
Putting an eye catcher in the center of UI, making it symmetric, using the architectural principle of well sized base, body and top, are classic design principles, which we follow perfectly in Hive.

Furthermore we solved various problems. We greatly reduced mouse distances over competing designs, particularly those that switch between different layer views. A two-row sequencer means a lot less strain on mousing than a wide sequencer in a single row for instance. The two synth engines (left and right) are laid out in an almost optimal square space.

The bottom panel is merely used for configuration tasks, even more so in Hive 2. Mouse ways are long, but rare. Most mousing happens inside the 3 top sections, each using the space pretty optimally. Squeezing mouse-intensive modules into the bottom panel would remove that advantage.

Replacing the hexagon with a square might look like "yay, better use of space". But really, it would just look like it. It would have the same advantages and disadvantages that any tabbed interface has: Some tabs are a bit crammed, some are a bit wastefully spacious. That's a given problem in any case, hexagon or square or circle.

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