Music theory is not logical

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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fmr
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8509 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:15 pm

mystran wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:24 am
emess wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:41 am
So C natural minor would be C D Eb F G Ab Bb...
For any traditional scale, the letters always go in order A,B,C,D,E,F,G in a loop. Note that this order is alphabetic. I guess whoever came up with it must have preferred minor scales and it's quite curious that we also generally tune instruments on reference A.. but whatever. You can rotate the starting letter to your tonic and you can add any number of sharps or flats as required, but the letters always go in order.

For example, if we wanted a minor scale in Cb, we would have Cb, Db, Ebb, Fb, Gb, Abb, Bbb. On piano Cb is the same physical key as B, so the actual physical keys used are the same as for B minor, where the notes would be B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A, but note that in both cases we follow the alphabetic ordering, with flats/sharps to adjust the actual pitches.

The only common exception to this "alphabetic" rule is the German nomenclature (used in many european countries, at least in classical circles, so it's good idea to be aware of this weirdness) where "H" is used in place of "B" and "B" instead means what is known as "Bb" elsewhere. Your scale can only have one of these though and otherwise all the same logic applies though. I can't seem to find a reference on the web right now, but if I'm not mistaken this weird convention traces back to some early typographical issues, making it quite illogical for real.
Well, this "convention" is only true for anglo-saxonic countries. No latin country uses it. The Germans, as you said, use the H (which was in fact a B square, or B dur(um), in medieval times) for the B, and the B for the B moll (B flat - that's where the word "bémol" and also the flat symbol come from).

OTOH, Latin countries, as well well as almost any other country, use names for the notes. In French is Ut, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Si. In Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, etc., is Do, Re, Mi, Fa Sol, La, Si.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_note
Fernando (FMR)

mystran
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5212 posts since 12 Feb, 2006 from Helsinki, Finland

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:51 pm

fmr wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:15 pm
OTOH, Latin countries, as well well as almost any other country, use names for the notes. In French is Ut, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Si. In Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, etc., is Do, Re, Mi, Fa Sol, La, Si.
I'm actually aware. Curiously enough, when I was in kindergarten in Finland, we used the Italian names [edit: although I'm fairly sure the name "Ti" was used in place of "Si" for whatever reasons], even though elsewhere in Finland (at least in classical circles where my formal training comes from) you typically see the German convention.

Either way, I wanted to bring up the case of "H-note" mostly because it otherwise uses the same system, so it's worthwhile to know about it just to avoid accidental confusion, especially given how dominant German speaking countries were in much of the history of classical music.
If you'd like Signaldust to return, please ask Katinka Tuisku to resign.

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fmr
KVRAF
8509 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:32 pm

mystran wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:51 pm
fmr wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:15 pm
OTOH, Latin countries, as well well as almost any other country, use names for the notes. In French is Ut, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Si. In Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, etc., is Do, Re, Mi, Fa Sol, La, Si.
I'm actually aware. Curiously enough, when I was in kindergarten in Finland, we used the Italian names [edit: although I'm fairly sure the name "Ti" was used in place of "Si" for whatever reasons], even though elsewhere in Finland (at least in classical circles where my formal training comes from) you typically see the German convention.
I think that's the method used in anglo-saxonic countries for singing solfege (Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Ti-Do). I think it's called "solmization. They use always those names, no matter what tonality (therefore notes) people are singing. So, the tonic is always Do (doesn't matter which note it really is), the second note is Re, and son on. I think they use this because it would be difficult to sing the solfege with letters, but it seems weird to me. Over here, we always sing with the real note names (of course).
Fernando (FMR)

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jancivil
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17528 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:45 pm

In both music colleges I attended (US), 7 was 'si'. In Sound of Music it's 'ti', a drink with jam and bread.
We drink coffee :x
I don't recall it from community college.

I never sang minor with major syllables, ie., 1 as 'la' which I have heard of. Fortunately, because I disagree with that. The flat 7 would be 'se', a 'flat' 3 'me' (pron: say, may)...

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jancivil
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17528 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:57 pm

First I heard of H was 'on the name of Bach', probably in Webern String Quartet, albeit Schumann has it literally the name of Sechs Fugen über den Namen: Bach.

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fmr
KVRAF
8509 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:58 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:45 pm
We drink coffee :x
Actually, that's not coffee what you drink. It's a dark drink that happens to be made with something extracted of coffee grains, but it's so diluted that it's more or less like tea :hihi:

WE drink coffee :razz:
Fernando (FMR)

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jancivil
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17528 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:11 pm

mud



BRUTAL :D

Ploki
KVRian
647 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:56 am

jancivil wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:57 pm
First I heard of H was 'on the name of Bach', probably in Webern String Quartet, albeit Schumann has it literally the name of Sechs Fugen über den Namen: Bach.
Most eastern european countries use H, and i also think Germany. Probably eastern europeans got it from germans since, well, they occupied us for a while.

Funny tho, flat H is Be. (as in Bb.), to add to the confusion. I hate this type of nomenclature.

Also, some teachers here used "Ti" when using solmization instead of Si. But not all.
a hot mess

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Guenon
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1557 posts since 17 Jun, 2005

Re: Music theory is not logical

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:23 am

On topic (B vs. H) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXBQAJsxzm8

:)

I remember seeing that movie as a kid. Living in a coutry where "H" is used, heh.

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