DUNE 3 is now available!!

[Teksonik]

Bones, seriously, man to man here. We've known each other for 18 years. What the heck are you trying to accomplish here ? You have a direct line to the developer on a private forum. Why drag Dune 3 through the mud here in public ?

You know Rich rarely if ever reads this thread. Even if you get everybody to agree with you then what ? In the end you're asking for a total re-write of D3's workflow. We have no way of knowing how much work that would be for Synapse or how much return on their investment of time that would generate.

But to insult Synapse by saying things like this:

It is completely obvious that a lot of time, thought and effort went into making Hive's workflow pleasurable and none at all went into DUNE's interface/workflow.

How long have you known Richard ? Why would you want to do him like that ? No thought and effort ? Really ?

Look I'm not opposed to any feature request and yes workflow is a feature but we all have our priorities. My top feature requests will never be added to D3 so I just accept it and enjoy what is.

So instead of waiting for something that may never happen why not just enjoy D3 for what it is now ? I just hate to see anyone missing out on the great sound of Dune because it might not as easy to program as they want it to be.

Anyway I hope everybody gets their own favorite requests granted but in the meantime I'm just going to keep using and enjoying D3 for what it is today.........

[BONES]

Pro tip... you can check what patch you got loaded by playin the keys

Really? Where does the name pop up? There is no point playing keys if it's a patch my band-mate has put into something and I need to find the original preset it was made from or if I am previewing and tweaking sounds and constantly have to swap between screen tabs to go to the next preset. On it's own it is not the end of the world but it is just one of many little things that erode the overall experience.

Anyway, the demo has expired and I'm still not convinced of the upgrade, so I will pass!

I don't blame you. As much as I love the sound, I don't know if I'd use it if I had to pay for it. In fact, I doubt I'd use it at all if my bandmate didn't keep handing me things with it already in. I am almost certain I have never put it into anything myself, there is always something that will get the job done with a lot less hassle than DUNE.

I find The Legend boring as hell to program. I did that shit 40 years ago and I've had enough of it. It gets old real fast.

I found the same thing. I was initially very excited by it but it didn't take very long at all to bump up against it's many limitations. Again, it sounds amazing but I don't find many uses for it.

In fact, VA synthesis is so boring for me that I will absolutely never buy another "pure" VA synth ever again. I mean, what's the point?

I can think of a few - better sound, easier to work with, better combination of features/functionality. I don't sit around programming synths, I grab them when I need them and make a patch on the fly, so what bores you tends to make my life a whole lot easier. e.g. I bought Iris 2 a couple of weeks ago. I installed it straight away but I didn't get around to firing it up until last night, when my bandmate sent me something he'd added it to. I know it's there, I know what it does and I'll grab it when I have need of it. Until then, I am largely incurious about it. It's like a new spanner (wrench), I like that I have it but it can sit in my toolbox until it's needed.

D3 is one of the easiest synths I've ever programmed and that counts a lot of synths. Yes if you want to get into Formulas then it can get complex but it's possible to program a lot of really great sounding patches without ever getting near a formula. If you're willing to put in the time.

What time? It doesn't matter how well you know the synth, I'm sure I know it every bit as well as you do, but no amount of knowledge improves the workflow. There are more than enough examples being given for any reasonable person to accept the reality of the situation, you are just being stubborn and refusing to see things as they are, which helps no-one.

[BONES]

i dont really see it as a complicated synth, if follows pretty much all the standard workflows. It can be complex, if you want, but its not difficult to get to grips with.

Agreed. Conceptually it is no harder to understand than anything else as it is, at heart, just a stack of 3 osc V/A synths. The problems are completely about the workflow, which is not great and many examples have been given to show this.

the areas i see ppl getting confused are the layers, when in reality, its the same synth x 8

Again, the concepts are easy, it's the way they've been implemented that creates most issues. e.g. The "x 8" concept is very easy to understand but it's not easy to work with because all that power lives in a little row of innocuous LEDs. How much easier would it be if they were instead in a row of 8 tabs across the top of the GUI? A simple paradigm everyone is familiar with that really drives home the point and let's you know exactly where you are. Your idea for a layer mixer also gives one of DUNE's most powerful features the prominence it needs, although I'd prefer that space was used to expose all three oscillators.

If one can prgram Wasp, Synth1 or any other simple VA synth, you can program D3. The only difference is 8 layers, and the sharing of arps, mod matrix, lfos & fx.
And... you dont need a science laboratory brain to do either.

Yes, if you sit in a room by yourself and start from scratch each time, DUNE 3 is actually extremely easy to use. However, if someone hands you a project that uses DUNE 3 and you need to go in and edit the patch, it is probably the worst synth in the world to figure out. e.g. One patch I wanted to give a bit more presence to in a mix ended up being exactly the same settings, layered five times with no detune or spread. By turning off four layers and turning the remaining layer up, I was able to get the exact same sound. To me that is just plain stupid. To be fair, that's on the moron who made the patch but it illustrates how many rabbit holes there are for the unwary to fall down, which makes working with other people's patches more difficult than with any other synth I use. Even a synth like Equator, which is more complex than DUNE, makes it way easier to work out what's going on in a patch. (I actually need to put a post-it note on my monitor - "use Equator, you moron!" - because I never seem to think of it when I'm looking for something.)

[BONES]

Bones, seriously, man to man here. We've known each other for 18 years. What the heck are you trying to accomplish here ? You have a direct line to the developer on a private forum. Why drag Dune 3 through the mud here in public ?

Because one voice doesn't matter. I'm not the only one with issues and I want DUNE to be as good as it can be. I don't want to settle for "that'll do", especially when you can see from this thread that these problems are costing Synapse customers. If there are two or three people willing to brave the storm and say they like DUNE's sound but won't upgrade because of the workflow, you can bet there are plenty more who aren't so brave (or foolish). I am not going to sit here and tell those people it's all good when I have exactly the same issues.

Even if you get everybody to agree with you then what ? In the end you're asking for a total re-write of D3's workflow.

I don't think so. As I said, Hive and Urs have given me an idea of a fairly simple way of making huge improvements. Just a re-arrangement of a few things and a handful of new controls. Other feedback from this thread has given me greater insight still, so there is plenty of benefit init, at least as far as present Rich and Marcin with a solid idea of how to make things better with (hopefully) minimal effort, without making it too hard on existing users, either.

We have no way of knowing how much work that would be for Synapse or how much return on their investment of time that would generate.

If it doesn't involve new code, I don't think it should be too much work but, yeah, you never know.

But to insult Synapse by saying things like this:

It is completely obvious that a lot of time, thought and effort went into making Hive's workflow pleasurable and none at all went into DUNE's interface/workflow.

How long have you known Richard ? Why would you want to do him like that ? No thought and effort ? Really ?

I've known Rich longer than I've known you and I understand how hard it is to get him interested in anything to do with GUI, so I feel the need to be blunt in order to make my point. e.g. You saw how much traction I got when I suggested that the velocity controls were in a stupid place that stopped people from using them.

So instead of waiting for something that may never happen why not just enjoy D3 for what it is now ?

Mostly because there are plenty of other synths I enjoy far more than DUNE 3. In fact, I'm just as likely to load up DUNE CM as DUNE 3.

I just hate to see anyone missing out on the great sound of Dune because it might not as easy to program as they want it to be.

Me, too, yet on a daily basis I make exactly that decision. Believe it or not, it gets to be a little frustrating after a while.

Anyway I hope everybody gets their own favorite requests granted but in the meantime I'm just going to keep using and enjoying D3 for what it is today.........

Stop being nice, you're making me sick.

[zerocrossing]

Yes, if you sit in a room by yourself and start from scratch each time, DUNE 3 is actually extremely easy to use. However, if someone hands you a project that uses DUNE 3 and you need to go in and edit the patch, it is probably the worst synth in the world to figure out. e.g. One patch I wanted to give a bit more presence to in a mix ended up being exactly the same settings, layered five times with no detune or spread. By turning off four layers and turning the remaining layer up, I was able to get the exact same sound. To me that is just plain stupid. To be fair, that's on the moron who made the patch but it illustrates how many rabbit holes there are for the unwary to fall down, which makes working with other people's patches more difficult than with any other synth I use. Even a synth like Equator, which is more complex than DUNE, makes it way easier to work out what's going on in a patch. (I actually need to put a post-it note on my monitor - "use Equator, you moron!" - because I never seem to think of it when I'm looking for something.)

First off, I’m not sure why you’re calling the moron who badly programs patches a moron when it would seem to me like, well you know, as Obiwan says, “who’s the fool? The fool or the fool who follows the fool?” If the patch isn’t good and Dune is “extremely easy to use,” why not just abandon the crap patch and roll your own good one? Any synth that’s got multiple layers and a fair degree of complexity is just going to take some archeological study to figure out.

Anyway, to me, Dune has always been fairly simple to figure out. A perfect UI? No. I am not a fan of faux LCD displays on software. That aside, the only thing that tripped me out about it was that oscillators start out muted by having zero voices set. I do remember thinking, “why the f can’t I make this oscillator sound...” So, quick look at the manual and that’s that. Should it be changed? Yeah, but in the end it’s a minor thing.

And... Equator? Sure, it’s a pretty good software synth that’s designed to use with a specific controller brand. Nice they added FM to it, but there’s no wavetable synthesis. Anyway, it’s not really capable of a lot of the things Dune does really well. Good luck trying to modulate your filter cutoff with a detuned unison oscillator in Equator. (Do try it in Dune, it can be amazing.) Don’t get me wrong, I’m a Rise 49 guy and I’m in Equator all the time, but it’s pretty silly to bring it up in this thread. If Equator was available as a separate product, I wouldn’t really recommend it.

Anyway, what Dune 3 is, is a wavetable synth with an interesting unison implementation and now a harem of sexy analog modeled filter types. To me, it sounds every bit as “hardware-hybrid” as my Pro 2. The fact that it can be had as a polyphonic software synth for $179 is amazing. You on here whining about some pretty minor UX issues is really not doing you any favors. You seem like a troll. Have an opinion, make a suggestion, but if you hate it so much, go f around with Equator.

[BONES]

If the patch isn’t good and Dune is “extremely easy to use,” why not just abandon the crap patch and roll your own good one?

Time. Easier to do it with something else - TRK-01, Thorn, Hive, Equator, Go2 - more often than not.

Any synth that’s got multiple layers and a fair degree of complexity is just going to take some archeological study to figure out.

What you end up doing is ignoring all the stuff you don't need, like the wavetables, the FM and the layers. No need to figure them out until someone hands you something that uses those things. Even then, the figuring out part is easy, it's the dealing with it that's a punish. e.g. When you want to add a bit more velocity modulation to your filter cutoff, you know the velocity settings aren't in the filter area, they are on the Settings panel of the centre screen, but getting to it is going to require more effort than it's worth so you just add it into the Mod Matrix, which gets the job done but is hardly as elegant as other synths. I imagine it's why a lot of DUNE presets don't respond as well to velocity as other synths do.

And... Equator? Sure, it’s a pretty good software synth that’s designed to use with a specific controller brand. Nice they added FM to it, but there’s no wavetable synthesis.

So what? Who wants wavetable synthesis? It was around 30 years ago and until a couple of years ago nobody gave a rat's arse about it. It's just trendy at the moment, I have less than no interest in it at all. But if we are just totting up features, Equator has two sample oscillators that you don't get in DUNE, on top of the three V/A oscillators that you do. Noise is yet another separate source, not an either/or as it is in DUNE. It also has very flexible signal routing. But those things aren't important, it's how usable the features that are there are. Id' also point out that while it is made to use with a Roli Seaboard, it works just as well on it's own.

I’m a Rise 49 guy and I’m in Equator all the time, but it’s pretty silly to bring it up in this thread. If Equator was available as a separate product, I wouldn’t really recommend it.

Anyone can buy Equator from Roli. I recommend it all the time (or as often as I recommend anything else). I think it sounds amazing and it had more usable presets out of the 400 it came with than pretty much any synth I can think of. I've probably made more presets for it than any other synth I have bought, too.[/quote]

Anyway, what Dune 3 is, is a wavetable synth with an interesting unison implementation and now a harem of sexy analog modeled filter types.

Why would you ignore the V/A and FM engines? What's so special about wavetables? It's not like it's the first one Synapse have ever made.

To me, it sounds every bit as “hardware-hybrid” as my Pro 2.

What's a "Pro 2" and why is there anything special about a "hardware-hybrid"? I think DUNE 3 sounds way better than any hardware synth I own but I'd still rather go menu-diving in MicroMonsta or Pulse 2 than deal with it's workflow. I's definitely take DUNE 3 over Analog Keys, though.

[HcDoom]

Ok Bones, we get it...you dont like Dune 3. End of story and lets move on. Stop destroying thread!

[Teksonik]

as far as present Rich and Marcin with a solid idea of how to make things better with (hopefully) minimal effort, without making it too hard on existing users, either.

You're missing my point. You're doing it on the wrong forum. If you want to influence the development of Dune 3 then you're far more likely to accomplish that on the beta forum than in a thread that obviously no one from Synapse has the time to read. You're simply going about it in the wrong way. You had your chance to have a say and failed to take the opportunity.

I suggested that the velocity controls were in a stupid place that stopped people from using them.

That's a perfect example. How is having all the Velocity controls on the Settings page "stupid" ? How is having them there stopping people from using them as opposed to having them anywhere else ? For example I'm sure Kevin knows where the velocity controls are since he took the time to learn but just because he chose not to assign velocity to many of his excellent patches doesn't mean the controls are in a "stupid" place. I use velocity in most of my patches. It really is just that easy. A mouse click here or a mouse click there are the same thing. No difference in workflow time at all.

When you want to add a bit more velocity modulation to your filter cutoff, you know the velocity settings aren't in the filter area, they are on the Settings panel of the centre screen, but getting to it is going to require more effort than it's worth so you just add it into the Mod Matrix, which gets the job done but is hardly as elegant as other synths.

Again how is simply clicking the settings tab and adjusting the velocity any harder than clicking the mod matrix tab and adding it there ? Answer, it isn't any harder and in fact it's easier. Your complaint borders on being silly. Just because you want it another way doesn't make you right. Even adding dedicated velocity knobs by the Filter and Amp sections will require some coding and a re-work of the GUI and wouldn't make things any easier. You might save a mouse click or two so a patch that would have taken three minutes to program now only takes two minutes fifty five seconds. I'd rather that development time be spent on something that actually has an effect on the sounds that D3 can make.

It just seems like you are confusing "Dune 3 can't" with "Bones can't". If you can't get your head around Dune 3's workflow when many others obviously have then where does the problem lie ? Your bandmate Sik has obviously figured it out so well that he can create patches that you can't even understand.

It doesn't matter how well you know the synth, I'm sure I know it every bit as well as you do, but no amount of knowledge improves the workflow. There are more than enough examples being given for any reasonable person to accept the reality of the situation, you are just being stubborn and refusing to see things as they are, which helps no-one.

If you knew the synth as well I do then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The reality of the situation is I don't have any problem with the workflow. Just because you and a handful of other people do doesn't mean there is a fundamental problem with D3's workflow. But as usual you are just being stubborn and failing to understand the difference between your opinion and facts.

Just because you think something is better doesn't mean it is actually better. You have always failed to grasp this concept and I fear you always will.

The Velocity issue is a perfect example. You want Synpase to spend valuable development time to change things just because you can't remember where the velocity settings are ?

All your workflow ideas will not change the sound of D3 one bit. They will only serve to make things a little easier for you and a handful of others without taking into consideration the desires of those who have already purchased D3.

Anyway if you must persist in your workflow crusade at this late stage in Dune's development when you failed to do so very early in the development stage then there is a right way to do it and here is not the place. You'll accomplish nothing droning on here.

Again in regards to the workflow and in my opinion...it really is that easy. Is there room for improvement ? Perhaps but again I'd rather any development focus on sound and not convenience.

Oh and I'm wondering if those who are complaining about the workflow are all on laptops. Using the Large skin on a 27" monitor set to 1920x1080 makes D3 really easy to see and to use. It really is that easy.

[Teksonik]

You on here whining about some pretty minor UX issues is really not doing you any favors. You seem like a troll. Have an opinion, make a suggestion, but if you hate it so much, go f around with Equator.

+1

Ok Bones, we get it...you dont like Dune 3. End of story and lets move on. Stop destroying thread!

+1

[wagtunes]

Question: At what point does a synth's GUI/Workflow, whatever, become an issue? When 20% of the user base has a problem with it? 30%? 40%? What's the number?

Don't get me wrong. IMO, Bones seems to love to complain about things and can get quite nasty with some people. I have personally been on the receiving end of some of his saltier comments.

But he brings up some good points. And just where those who say to him "Just because YOU say there's a problem doesn't mean there is one" the same could be said in reverse. Just because YOU say there's no problem doesn't mean there isn't.

The hypocrisy, let alone the irony of this place, doesn't escape me. Not for a minute. We're right and the other person is wrong while being just as stubborn as he is.

KVR at its best.

But back to my question. When does something become an issue? How many people have to have a problem with it for it to become a problem?

FTR, I'm fine with Dune 3 as it is. But I'm not hard to please. As long as the GUI is big and I can read it, that's enough for me. Complex interfaces don't bother me.

[vurt]

id say it's an issue when the developer feels theres something that is effecting sales.

not that im suggesting bones or anyone, shpuldnt be able to offer personal opinions, because even if a developer isn't worried about sales figures, as in everything is selling as expected, the odd idea from the many complaints may spark with the dev.
of course we should be allowed to discuss the weaknesses and strengths of anything.
it's a matter of how you do it, you can be firm in your opinion without being rude.
on the other hand, with some people a bit of rudeness is ok, as in banter, when you know the other person is likely to take it as such.

no one is helped if we end up with just name calling though.

[AnX]

Rich is certainly one to lose interest and discontinue products - Junglist, Hydra, Scorpion, the Poly800 emulation he made, Orion - so even though I hadn't really thought about it, it is a realistic possibility that this is as far as DUNE will go.

prob down to sales, i doubt those synths sold much, they were pretty simple and things move on very quickly. He did say Orion wasnt selling at all.

ppl wanted complex synths or analogue emus, so he went with the market

[zvenx]

Everyone indeed is different.
I have had strong disagreements with some of the developers I beta test for.
Some of the strong disagreements in my head , some I verbally communicate to them, sometimes even in terse words. Some have even done stuff that I consider dealbreaker for me and I tell them.. in the privacy of beta/nda communications.

But to do so publicly?

Wow..

I think I 'owe' them that much, not to do so.

Everyone is indeed different.
rsp

[Teksonik]

Question: At what point does a synth's GUI/Workflow, whatever, become an issue? When 20% of the user base has a problem with it? 30%? 40%? What's the number?

You tell me. What percentage of people are complaining ? How many people already purchased D3 and are happy with it now ? Count the number of people who said they won't buy D3 because of the "workflow" against the number of people who have already purchased or upgraded to D3.

But he brings up some good points.

I haven't seen a good one yet. The points he brings up are often silly like the Velocity issue.

And just where those who say to him "Just because YOU say there's a problem doesn't mean there is one" the same could be said in reverse. Just because YOU say there's no problem doesn't mean there isn't.

You're confusing "there is a problem" with "I think there is a problem".

Say you and I both have the same car and drive the same streets and I have never had an accident but every time you get in your car you run it into a wall. Whose fault is that ? The car's or the driver's ?

Again count the number of people complaining about Dune's workflow against the people who say they don't have a problem (including yourself). Do you really think there is a fundamental problem with D3's workflow or are some people just running it into a wall ?

Do you really think it's in Synapse Audio's best interest to spend time placating a few users who will most likely find some other minutiae to complain about anyway ? Obviously we are not privy to the sales records but based on what I've read I get the feeling that D3 was much more of a success than even Synapse had expected.

So who knows if it would be worth the effort and valuable development time to implement these features and if they are really going to convince more than a handful of people to purchase or upgrade.

I'd rather that time be spent on features that expand the range of sounds D3 can make and I have the feeling that all those people who have already purchased D3 would agree since apparently they have no real problems with the workflow.

Is anything perfect ? No of course not but every time you change something like for example adding another Tab to placate one user then another use will chime in "I hate Tabs!". Making something better for you does not mean it will automatically make things better for everyone else. That's the point I'm trying to drive home to Bones but getting past that thick skull of his is like trying to penetrate a concrete bunker.

So to answer your question how many people have to complain before it becomes and issue ? I would have to say a lot more than have already. Just because one who likes to complain alot is overly loud about it doesn't make it a real problem.

KVR at its best.

Says the guy who has been at the center of one drama after another. You know the door is always open. You can leave anytime you want.

[fmr]

Question: At what point does a synth's GUI/Workflow, whatever, become an issue? When 20% of the user base has a problem with it? 30%? 40%? What's the number?

You tell me. What percentage of people are complaining ? How many people already purchased D3 and are happy with it now ? Count the number of people who said they won't buy D3 because of the "workflow" against the number of people who have already purchased or upgraded to D3.

DUNE 3 is close enough to DUNE 2 for existing customers to feel at home, and keep feeling satisfied.

Those are, IMO, the most important group for the developer. First of all, he must think in keeping the existing customers. New customers have to decide of the synth is what they want or not, but if the existing combination has been succeeding in persuading customers along the years, there's no reason for it to stop now. OTOH, changing too many things may risk displeasing the existing customers, while still failing to attract new ones.

If a synth is being successful, then the combination of GUI and functionalities must be good enough. There is a say in football (soccer for the Yankees) that goes like this: "Don't mess with a winning team" (the exact words are "don't touch a team that's winning"). So, if the team is winning, he better be careful to not mess (much) with it.