DUNE 3 is now available!!

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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fmr
KVRAF
8510 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:41 am

Teksonik wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:34 am
wagtunes wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:17 am
Question: At what point does a synth's GUI/Workflow, whatever, become an issue? When 20% of the user base has a problem with it? 30%? 40%? What's the number?
You tell me. What percentage of people are complaining ? How many people already purchased D3 and are happy with it now ? Count the number of people who said they won't buy D3 because of the "workflow" against the number of people who have already purchased or upgraded to D3.
DUNE 3 is close enough to DUNE 2 for existing customers to feel at home, and keep feeling satisfied.

Those are, IMO, the most important group for the developer. First of all, he must think in keeping the existing customers. New customers have to decide of the synth is what they want or not, but if the existing combination has been succeeding in persuading customers along the years, there's no reason for it to stop now. OTOH, changing too many things may risk displeasing the existing customers, while still failing to attract new ones.

If a synth is being successful, then the combination of GUI and functionalities must be good enough. There is a say in football (soccer for the Yankees) that goes like this: "Don't mess with a winning team" (the exact words are "don't touch a team that's winning"). So, if the team is winning, he better be careful to not mess (much) with it.
Last edited by fmr on Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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Teksonik
KVRAF
12192 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:45 am

zvenx wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:10 am
But to do so publicly?

Wow..

I think I 'owe' them that much, not to do so.
Thank you. :tu:

That's another point I've tried to drive home. Rather than dragging D3 through the mud here just to satiate some pathological desire to argue with people why not take the cause to a forum where you might actually have a chance of making a change ?

I've suggested nay begged for the .sfz Oscillator from Synapse's Zampler plugin to be added to Dune 3 since it would expand the range of sounds it could make by an order of magnitude.

Although I don't remember the exact wording and reason the bottom line is that feature will likely never be added to D3. Ok no problem, of course I'm disappointed but I've just accepted it and moved on.

I don't come here insulting the plugin and the developer because he's not doing things exactly the way I want. :shrug:
Last edited by Teksonik on Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Teksonik
KVRAF
12192 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:56 am

fmr wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:41 am
First of all, he must think in keeping the existing customers. New customers have to decice of the synth is what they want or not, but if the existing combination has been succeeding in persuading customers along the years, there's no reason for it to stop now. OTOH, changing too many things may risk displeasing the existing customers, while still failing in attract new ones.
Well said. :tu:

I'm just not convinced adding a few tweaks is really going to cause enough people to buy or upgrade if they haven't already.

As you point out, changing something for one person's workflow may just piss off another customer.

Some people don't like GUIs that are too Large or too crowded, some don't like Tabs and on and on. Finding a happy medium is an almost impossible task. I don't envy any developer trying to satisfy everyone's definition of the "perfect" workflow. :?

Ok time once again to stop talking about synths and go use them. The synth Du Jour will of course be Dune 3 with a side order of Hive and perhaps VPS Avenger for desert....... :)

(oh and for anyone having problems with D3 being difficult you'd better not get anywhere near Avenger. Your head will probably explode.......... :hihi:)
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14893 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:41 am

@Tek

2 points

1. You actually answered my question as I expected without realizing it. You yourself said (reread what you said if you have to) that you don't know if it would be worth the time and effort to implement these features. Whatever features they are. Truth is, neither you nor I know how many people DIDN'T buy Dune 3 because of whatever problems that had with the workflow. And unless these people specifically wrote to Synapse and told them, I doubt even Synapse knows for sure. But to assume that the few people who complain here is all that there is, is making a bad assumption. Most people can't be bothered complaining about things. They just don't bother buying them. I mean do you think I write to every manufacturer of every product that I don't buy because I think the product is junk? Of course not. So all Synapse can go by is sales of Dune 3 compared to what sales of Dune 2 were to tell if Dune 3 is a relative success or not. And even then, they can never be completely sure that Dune 3 couldn't have been even more of a success with some "improvements" and I put that word in quotes because the truth is, who's to say what an improvement even is? Nobody knows for certain. Not you, not I, not anybody. At least not in any way that can be measured in increased sales, which is really the only thing that matters. But to automatically dismiss the complaint of somebody just because you don't agree with it, sorry, but that's just wrong.

Which brings me to point number 2.

2. You say I'm in the middle of my share of crap that goes on around here? Did you ever stop to think why? Could it possibly be that I have zero tolerance for people who treat others like dirt. The amount of nastiness that goes on in this place (and Bones can be one of the worst offenders calling people idiots) is what drags me into this stuff. I won't stand for it and I won't put up with it. Now this year I've basically kept out of things. That doesn't mean I don't see the rudeness in this forum.

You can pretend it doesn't exist if you want. It doesn't make it not true.

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Hink
Rad Grandad
28059 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:50 am

why is this becoming a round robin of making it about each other and not the points? If it's not about the software it's getting deleted, I have to say this every other day. I'm trying to keep this thread on track, what is it I have to do? If you're going to talk about someone else dont post, if you decide it's time to call someone names or fingers, dont post here, you guys wont stop until this thread is locked...where is the respect in that for the dev?
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

tony10000
KVRist
280 posts since 4 Aug, 2017

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:07 am

I think that it is pointless to make negative comments about Dune's UI in a public forum. These comments are best shared with the developers along with suggestions for improvement. I don't have any problems with Dune's UI. I don't believe that the majority of users do either given its popularity. The fact that this is the third version of the synth reinforces my position. The fact that they carried over many design elements from Dune 2 could mean that these elements were well received and in no need of improvement. Of course we all have our favorite synths and workflows and it may take a bit of time, study, and experimentation to adapt to a different UI. Bottom line: If you don't like a synth's UI and it workflow, find another synth!

kaner
KVRist
102 posts since 27 Sep, 2017

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:13 pm

Hey Synapse, can you do some nice upgrade sale please? :)

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7717 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pm

Teksonik wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:42 am
You're missing my point. You're doing it on the wrong forum. If you want to influence the development of Dune 3 then you're far more likely to accomplish that on the beta forum than in a thread that obviously no one from Synapse has the time to read. You're simply going about it in the wrong way. You had your chance to have a say and failed to take the opportunity.
No, you're missing the point. I am gathering information here, information I won't get from the damned beta forum that gobbled up wavetables like they were worthwhile. When I have sufficient information, I can formulate a plan, which I can then present to Rich via email.

Anyway, all you are doing is prolonging this thing you clearly wish to stop, so I'm not going to read any further. There is no point.
HcDoom wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:49 am
Ok Bones, we get it...you dont like Dune 3. End of story and lets move on. Stop destroying thread!
Obviously you don't get it because I love DUNE 3, it has lifted every song we've used it in to a new level. I just don't like having to deal with its workflow. If it was a simple matter of not liking it, it wouldn't be a problem because there are plenty of synths I don't like. But when the sound is so good, you want the rest of the experience to match it and DUNE has been falling well short on that front for far too long.
wagtunes wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:17 am
Question: At what point does a synth's GUI/Workflow, whatever, become an issue? When 20% of the user base has a problem with it? 30%? 40%? What's the number?
The pragmatic way to answer that would be to look at how much those percentage increases in sales might matter to the company. It's all about ROI - if I spend x amount of time on something, will it return that effort in extra sales? I'd suggest that a small company like Synapse, with very limited resources, would have to deal with those questions all the time but if an issue can be solved without much effort, then even a modest increase is sales is enough to justify it. And I think these are issues that could be solved fairly easily. e.g. With a lot less effort than adding a second filter. The problem is that it's mostly GUI work, which I know Richard isn't very interested in (I think that's why he bought Marcin on-board) so there is no guarantee that offering even a perfect solution will get much traction. All we can do is try.

The other problem you have to deal with is that changing things around is likely to annoy existing users, no matter how big the improvements might be, so it's something that has to be approached with a degree of delicacy. I think a few small changes is more likely to work than a complete overhaul (as much as I'd like to see a complete overhaul).
Teksonik wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:45 am
Rather than dragging D3 through the mud here just to satiate some pathological desire to argue with people why not take the cause to a forum where you might actually have a chance of making a change ?
Because that has not worked. If you want to give up on your feature requests, that's your decision. I'm not ready to do that yet.
tony10000 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:07 am
I think that it is pointless to make negative comments about Dune's UI in a public forum. These comments are best shared with the developers along with suggestions for improvement. I don't have any problems with Dune's UI. I don't believe that the majority of users do either given its popularity.
With that attitude, why bother with a DUNE 2 or a DUNE 3 at all? If the original DUNE sold well, why not just keep it like that forever?
The fact that this is the third version of the synth reinforces my position.
No, it completely undermines your position because each new version involves changes from the original.
The fact that they carried over many design elements from Dune 2 could mean that these elements were well received and in no need of improvement.
Or, equally, it could be that the developer isn't interested in GUI work and couldn't be arsed even thinking about improving it. Nobody knows and your assumptions are no more valid than anyone else's.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno.

tony10000
KVRist
280 posts since 4 Aug, 2017

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:50 pm

Bones, you are the only one complaining about Dune 3 and its UI. Everyone else seems either to be content with it or willing to make it work. I doubt that Synapse is going to redesign their UI to satisfy one person. And I doubt that you can prove that a change is going to increase their ROI by one penny. So, you can "Grrrr" as much as you want but I doubt that it will advance your argument.

EnGee
KVRAF
5178 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:37 pm

Not only Bones!

Anyway, it seems useless to explain and I have already moved on. Enjoy your synth everyone :)
Let's donate to help the kids and save our planet.

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carrieres
KVRAF
1585 posts since 10 Apr, 2002 from Poissy, France

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:07 am

I agree with Bones too, i did not like at all the workflow induced by the skin of Dune2 and i raised my voice on the beta forum but i was alone, nobody helped me to argument with Richard.
As an example, Dune2 skin's height was too tall to fit some laptop screen, i made a skin with a reduced height.
It should have been made by Richard or Marcin because they certainly loose sales when a potential client demo a synth which don't fit his screen !
Another example, some bipolar knobs (semi, tone, feedback, color, input and output) are not used (in Dune3 but they are in Dune2) why ?
Its like the released was made in a rush !
Dune2/Dune3 beta testing time was very short with few impacts on the development except for the wavetable part which was improved by Mark's idea.
Imho, an improved workflow would means less tab. Today we have to use 4 tabs (osc, synthesis type, lcd and the bottom one)
i propose to have only 2 by setting the lcd tabs (matrix mod and arp1/2) inside the bottom one and to create a new tab under osc mixer related to the layer/voices (AnX idea)
Everything should lay nicely in the same skin size.
5 years later we need more GUI improvement, yes of course, the workflow or skin will not improve the sound but will improve the sales for sure !
Another wish i made in the past was to add some FM algorithms, 2 is too few even with the audio rate engine !
Image

AnX
KVRAF
3941 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:06 am

the layer mixer wasnt my idea, i just visualised it as an example :wink:

cytospur
KVRian
1161 posts since 26 Jun, 2002 from London, UK

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:27 am

Can the beta testers please, please, please stop this tiresome nonsense? Take it to the beta forum instead.
Wavetables for DUNE2/3, Blofeld, IL Harmor, Hive and Serum etc: http://charlesdickens.neocities.org/
£10 for lifetime updates including wavetable editor for Windows.

Music: https://soundcloud.com/markholt

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Teksonik
KVRAF
12192 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:41 am

BONES wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pm
I am gathering information here, information I won't get from the damned beta forum that.....When I have sufficient information, I can formulate a plan, which I can then present to Rich via email.
But you already know what you want so why do you need to "gather information" ? Or do you mean you just need people to say that you're right to boost your ego ?
BONES wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pm
damned beta forum that gobbled up wavetables like they were worthwhile.
There it is again....just because you don't need Wavetables it doesn't mean they are worthless. Some people actually like using WTs. One of the biggest features request was the WT Editor and that's why it was added to D3. But you've never cared what other people want it only matters what you want.

I hope you get what you want but I also hope Richard doesn't let to dumb down D3 to your level. Good luck getting the workflow changed at this late date. You should either have spoken up earlier or should shut up now. You can see how much response you've gotten from Synapse so far so again good luck.

Ok I'm done with you Bones. I'm going to block you now because there is no way to get past that thick skull of yours to talk some sense into you. If nothing else please try to grasp the concept of loyalty so you don't go publicly insulting people who have been very generous to you.
cytospur wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:27 am
Can the beta testers please, please, please stop this tiresome nonsense? Take it to the beta forum instead.
That's been my point since Bones insulted Richard on a public forum instead of being a man and contacting him directly through proper channels.

I'm out of here. To me Dune 3 is an awesome sounding synth that is dead easy to program. I'm sorry for those who feel differently. Good luck to all.........
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Banned
1 posts since 20 Feb, 2019

Re: DUNE 3 is now available!!

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:32 am

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