Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Post Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:55 pm

BONES wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:37 pm

I even find that a bit strange. I use whichever filter gets a particular job done

I certainly do not use -24db filters for everything, but my bass sounds are usually in the deep dark department and not the bright ones. Nevertheless I found the -12 db filter on minilogue very organic and dirty and made a few basses with this. I make leads and pads from highpass and bandpass filters as well.
I change things around all the time as a result of discussions here. Often it takes considerable effort to get useful information but why else would anyone bother with this place, if it wasn't to expand their horizons?
I am always curious to know about the ways people make music and what gear they use, and this can inspire me too. However, most changes happens when I learn about new or forgotten gear that fits my goals.

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jancivil
KVRAF
17933 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:08 am

IncarnateX wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:55 pm
BONES wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:37 pm

I even find that a bit strange. I use whichever filter gets a particular job done

I certainly do not use -24db filters for everything, but my bass sounds are usually in the deep dark department and not the bright ones. Nevertheless I found the -12 db filter on minilogue very organic and dirty and made a few basses with this. I make leads and pads from highpass and bandpass filters as well.
I change things around all the time as a result of discussions here. Often it takes considerable effort to get useful information but why else would anyone bother with this place, if it wasn't to expand their horizons?
I am always curious to know about the ways people make music and what gear they use, and this can inspire me too. However, most changes happens when I learn about new or forgotten gear that fits my goals.
It depends on context.
I don't need to know what 'moog filter is not a proper filter' means to a person. I don't find "because the bass does not fall out as easily when using resonance control" tells me anything real, I would rely on my experience of it. Some people know more about certain things than I do but reading words doesn't work for me like that. There are a lot of people arguing out of their backside anywhere you go so it's all grain of salt for me.

When I first joined here, I knew virtually nothing about compressors or how to maximize loudness, any of it. So I found through other sorts of (more direct and personal) interactions people I first of all could see results from and heeded certain things they advised. And for example one of the main bits of wisdom, the gentleman changed his mind on majorly since, and I never actually did myself (a signal chain [mastering] type of thing; the usual received wisdom) but the concepts of that idea led me to independently research.
But had I not acquired the tools I use, which suit my kind of mind and made ease of use, I would still not know.
I'm not any engineer; I don't have the super-abstract kind of modi operandi to work with, I wouldn't be a person to do technical writing, etc.

I can't know anything from reading. (It's like one thing I say at the Music Theory board, you can't learn to swim from a book.) And a lot of the conventional wisdom - which a noob is liable to fall for - turns out to be hogwash. I find people accepting authority and falling in line too frequently, I'm a skeptic.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
15226 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:30 am

The TLDR version of the above is most of the stuff you hear online is just BS. And when you're new, it's almost impossible to know what ISN'T.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:39 am

jancivil wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:08 am
I don't need to know what 'moog filter is not a proper filter' means to a person. I don't find "because the bass does not fall out as easily when using resonance control" tells me anything real, I would rely on my experience of it.
I am not sure what other it could tell you, Jan, apart from providing an explanation why the person in question consider a moog filter broken. Thus, my own curiosity would be satisfied and I move on. I do not enter threads with titles like above and expect to find revelations, just a diversity of opinions among which a few may be interesting.

If I want info that really matters to me, I make a thread, just like I did when deciding to go probability based.

viewtopic.php?f=102&t=509073

And that one had impact, I must say. It led me into a friggin paradigm shift.

No need to scan 100+ threads to find such info, when I can simply ask.

A thread about analogue emulations like the present one has to be taken for what it is, and that would be “basically pointless” in my book, so what little I can get from it is better than nothing. :D

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jancivil
KVRAF
17933 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:26 pm

Well, I don't care what he thinks, over years of seeing nonsense like that. I understand wanting to make sense of nonsense, because the human brain is basically wired to that but it's just how entertaining is it at the end of the day for me.

Filter in question is a ladder filter, and one who used it frequently may well find the statement counterintuitive out of the experience with it, and one's reading may already have provided enough to find the statement preposterous. It's a ladder filter. People actually find that it produces this 'squelching', aggressive effect in usage. Who knows what he wants, his music isn't anything to write home about.

The guy's a poseur. He isn't an authority on synthesizers at all. I have to be in a mood which I'm usually not, which is to find people's foibles funny. I think that's on the mean side.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:02 pm

All that analogue nostalgia, isn’t it just wonderful? Well, people do tend to forget what the digital revolution meant to electronic music. A good example is the topic of this video on the making of the terminator 2 soundtrack. Brad Fiedel made both the terminator I and II soundtrack but the first one was primitively produced on analog synths where he struggled to get clips synced manually because lack of cross connectivity. In contrast the second score was mainly made on two Fairligth CMI 3s, which gave him immediate sync but also the opportunity to manipulate natural organic sounds in the sampler, such as playing a trompet blast in very low octaves to get the T-1000’s signature -“whauuuam”. Further the digital artifacts from sample manipulation colored the whole score with an added layer of upper harmonics, which had great impact, like this guy demonstrates by reproducing a clip without it for comparison. I really like that. Just like the JP8000’s aliasing is part of its characteristic supersaw and no enemy of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnpYowxlwsU

You all see? Analog is good, digital is good and there are so much of it on the market that I doubt anyone couldn’t find what he needs if he cares to look for it, the nostalgics and futuristic EBM’ers too :wink:

There is nothing to discuss. All is fine. We can all go home now and be happy for the rest of our lives. :hug: :party:

Cheers
Last edited by IncarnateX on Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jancivil
KVRAF
17933 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:14 pm

I am probably going back to bed, this isn't working. :cry:

First real composition I did was in 1980 and I had somebody else's Minimoog and a Teac 4-track. I had a good workflow with that although I can't imagine how. I guess it's because I think monophonically and it was just single lines in 4 parts. I could be a moog bass player in performance, I remember well.
Then I borrowed my other friend's minimoog in summer of 1981 and did more 4-track things. I wish I had those tapes, they were pretty good probably. I had the patch sheets, you xerox the patch sheet and write down all the settings if you expect to turn the thing off ever. And you have to punch in a lot and pretty much nail it first time, or there is no flow. I could get nostalgic for that but that isn't anything compared to having a monstrous template up working in a piano roll automating a mix I wouldn't have imagined in my wildest dreams then.
And I was a full grown person by then, I was stylin' to have that.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7837 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:05 pm

jancivil wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:26 pm
Filter in question is a ladder filter, and one who used it frequently may well find the statement counterintuitive out of the experience with it, and one's reading may already have provided enough to find the statement preposterous.
Except that it is provably true and absolutely no-one can argue otherwise without being wrong. All you can say is that it doesn't matter to you, that you are happy to make bass presets with a filter that takes the bottom end punch out of the oscillators. Maybe that saves you having to filter those frequencies out separately, which is perfectly fine because the MiniMoog's oscillators are huge, but when you won't even acknowledge it as fact, that's simply absurd and makes you (as in anyone who thinks that way) look like a complete idiot. Why is that so hard to get your head around?
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:10 pm

Just for public info:

You still have to crank up that resonance to make low freqs fall out of a -24 db ladder filter. It does not happen automatically with all settings.

And FWIW: It happens on -12 db filters too with high resonance settings, just not as easily, so it is rather a question of degreee and not kind, imo.

So use that res subtly if you want to preserve low end on moog filters. Personally, I take this as a premise and not a surprising conclusion.

Consequently: It IS a pita that you can hardly touch the resonance when you want to tweak your bass beyond recognition along the way, However, there are workarounds, namely to upward compress and/or hard limit the output of the synth. Did that with minilogue because the fall out was rather extreme. Comp and limiting introduce other artifacts though, so it is always a compromise somehow, but if it works for you, it works, and pragmatics won the day.

Edit: Oh, and you can post-process it too. Those snippets of minilogue I once uploaded were maximized when the fall out became too extreme. But that does not help you in a performance situation, so comp and limiting, here we go.

Edit 2: On the Boog it was not much of a problem because it did not get noticeable before you were about half ways up with the res. In contrast both Arturia's and Moog's software emulations cut the low end one quarter upwards. Either Behringer or the modellers got something wrong here, and if Behringer did it wrong, I would prefer that "error". Worse with the minilogue. About 15-20% upwards, the low end is gone with the wind.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...,

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:04 pm

jancivil wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:26 pm
Who knows what he wants, his music isn't anything to write home about.
I think that is a question of genre. Would not expect you to fancy EBM any day; your intellectual approach to music demands much more than drums, bass, voice and noise, which are the basic ingedients of EBM along with other such as monotony. But to someone like me, who like anything from experimental noise to 1600 century vocal polyhony without sense for artistic discrimination, Novakill is not bad EBM at all. They manage to stay very faithful to the original 90 roots in contrast to modern gaba, trancy or futurepop versions of the genre (which sounds like crap in my ears to note a difference)

I get the spirit of your objections Jan but it seems like you are more provoked by his style than content. At least I can confirm that it is not easy to get high resonance when working with basses on -24 db filters, that is basically the story of my musical life. However, I have long ago found ways to deal with it and do not wish to impose it at someone else as a problem. Depends on what people want and their skills, e.g. in compression and limiting or just to do the right moves on an EQ.
Last edited by IncarnateX on Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7837 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:04 pm

IncarnateX wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:10 pm
However, there are workarounds, namely to upward compress and/or hard limit the output of the synth.
Or, and this is going to blow your mind, use something with a better filter.
Did that with minilogue because the fall out was rather extreme.
Monologue deals with it quite well by pumping up the Drive. But still, it was annoying enough that I got rid of both of them in fairly short order and bought something that doesn't have that problem at all.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt.

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jancivil
KVRAF
17933 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:13 pm

No, the context for that diss is the constant posing like an expert on synthesis. He understands filters better than Moog, clearly, a legend in his own mind.
It isn't evident in the music he posted here in these threads, the synth sounds are nothing to write home about. The sounds suit the music as well as sounds suit a music, I suppose. I don't think it's 'bad' for what it is, it isn't evidencing outstanding taste or expertise in sound design particularly IME. It isn't a bother for me, I have the mute button on as it has begun to be so scrolltastic to avoid, as of no particular entertainment value and certainly no educational value. :shrug: Like a dog returning to his own vomit pretty frequently if you didn't notice.

PS: the "content", really? He is here to ridicule everyone that goes for Moog like it's shit with this simple-minded thing about a proper filter. I think he opens himself up for whatever after seeing that 5 or 8 times.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:41 pm

BONES wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:04 pm
Or, and this is going to blow your mind, use something with a better filter.
I knew you were going to say that, sweetheart, so here is a mindblowing surprise for you too: I want the sound of those “bad” -24db filters and not the “better” -12db. :eek: :shock: :-o :wink:

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:31 pm

jancivil wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:13 pm
PS: the "content", really?
Well, to me it is a quite trivial trait of -24 db filters that they lose bass more easily than -12 db with high res settings. It virtually goes without saying. Thus, I find no controversial statement to get excited about in this case. However, I can see why his attitude gets people up from their chairs. This is just noise to me. Again: There is nothing new to learn about moog filters here, and a term like “broken” says absolutely nothing objective about the filter but is just a bold statement about preference. I think he knows that but likes to stir the pot and challenge consensus. We go: WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS! And BONES go: I AM NOT! (IDIOTS) and we have ourselves a wonderful Monty Phyton-like debate. After almost three decades, you should know him.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3802 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why use emulations of classic analogue synths---is it just nostalgia?...

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:57 pm

BONES wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:04 pm
Monologue deals with it quite well by pumping up the Drive. But still, it was annoying enough that I got rid of both of them in fairly short order and bought something that doesn't have that problem at all.
Isn’t the monologues’s filter a -12 db only?

Anyway, this could be an entry to a sound discussion with me about that because I have several ways of dealing with it before I would go -12 db. Basically I need three fat analog osc and a -24 db filter to get the dark and rounded bass sounds I want, e.g. more like Depeche Mode’s “Leave in Silence” (just darker and fatter still) than the agressive open-filtered Arp 2600 on DAFs “Der Mussolini“. Drive and saturation will not do for me, because I want my basses as clean and non-distorted as possible, so I’d rather:

1. Be gentle with the res
2. Use comp or limiting
3. Post-proces fall outs
4. Ensure that the bass’ sub-wave is either a sine or triangle, so it is basically preserved when turning up the res, whereas the two waves above are saws or saw/pulse combis and thus sensitive to res.
5. Try pumping up low unaffected freqs in the sound by EQ

And since one or more of these usually get me where I want, I see no reason to compromise my “filter-sound-preference”.

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