KVR Audio

killahpl · Post by **killahpl** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:00 pm

Hi,

I apologize if the subject line does not make it entirely clear what I'm trying to ask - I'll try to explain myself as best as I can.

Let's say I've randomly hit some keys on my piano in order to figure out a melody line that just sounds good - with no regard for tempo, key, time signature, etc. Let's say I came up with something I liked well enough; after looking at all the notes in my new melody line, I concluded that my melody is in G minor.

I then decide that the melody I came up with is a phrase that gets repeated 4 times - with little variations in each repetion for, well, variety, but 8 (not 8th!) notes in each - and forms the verse to my would-be song.

Now I have to load my melody into a sequencer - having done so, I see that each of the four repetitions that make up the verse take up 3 beats, with an 8th note pause at the end of each to get some breathing room in there before the next repetition kicks in with the beginning of the next measure. I notice that generally - well, everywhere except for the 1st note in each of the 4 repetitions that falls on the "1" of the first measure that begins each repetition - my notes do not fall on the "1", "2", "3", "4", but at different points in-between.

Then I figure out the tempo, however only in the sense that it sounds fast enough (I'm going for a symphonic metal sort of vibe here) and it's ~150 BPM.

My question is:

1. How do I figure out what the time signature is?
2. How do I go about laying down a drum pattern? Let's say I try to keep it simple and just focus on the kick & snare for now - should the drum hits fall on "1", "2", "3", "4"? Should I accentuate the beginning of each repetition that make up my verse section with e.g. a snare hit? Or would that be redundant? Let's say my melody consists of mostly 8th notes - do I accentuate those? Or dies it not matter? Is it a problem if my drums hits - either the snare or the kick - fall in places where almost no note of melody begins?
3. What steps do I take to create a rhythm section for my melody that doesn't significantly change my original ide (which I like)?

Thank you.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:19 pm

I have to say that you should listen closely to drumming on records and make notes and draw your own conclusions - and ape these drum parts in some way, if only banging on your car's dashboard - first.

IE: To begin with, if 4/4 is not patently obvious from what happened in a conventional genre/style... you need this fully internalized, in order to begin preparations to write.
If the melody matched up all the time with the drum part, look, nobody is doing any real musical thought with that. You have a paint-by-numbers sort of M.O. there.

Normally the simplest backbeat, ie., 2 and 4 is snare (and at least the 1 is kick); but I can show numerous examples where someone decided to go with kick for the backbeat, & with *no* kick on 1. These are musical questions. If you want to form something out of a cookie cutter, no problem, just find the one from the world somewhere that you'd want to fill with content. But there will be more independence in a musical arrangement than you're imagining, for whatever reason.

Winstontaneous · Post by **Winstontaneous** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 pm

What jancivil said, plus...you also need to be aware of how basslines and bass drums lock up to emphasize the groove in a particular style. Otherwise the groove can come across as half-hearted or wrong even if the parts are "gramatically correct". But for symphonic metal I'd guess the bass is locked in more with the rhythm guitar.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:30 pm

Actually there is one thing which has 4 beats that isn't 4/4 or 4 of any numerator, because it's 4 dotted values: compound meter eg., 12/8 (4 dotted quarters, each containing 3 8th note values).
IE: if you have consistent subdivision of 3 (where the subdivision by 2 is rare if ever), 4 x 3 = 12.

All rhythm is described in terms of subdivision of the basic beat.

But the rhythm of a melody may be entirely independent of what the drummer is doing. Or on the other end of the spectrum, is exactly in agreement.

"Groove music" does typically have the bass player locked in with the kick, albeit not necessarily 100% of the time. Modern metal may have a really busy kick independent of any bass part.

Here's a very basic backbeat in a drum part, in the first section of this, and where the kick is pretty much in the bass part it's so locked in (not so much heard, but felt here).
The snare 'part' is the same every two bars (on 2 & 4, then on 2, 3, & 4). The hihat is the busiest thing in it rhythmically.

And the melody is what it is, it doesn't rely on anything else. It's a seriously simple melody in longer durations so it's a marked contrast.

Then the second section is the drums carrying all interest, I would even call it de facto melodic drums. I'm using something of mine because I don't have to do any work to know about it.

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:56 pm

What Jan said but with a note that depending on style, rhythm and melody can work closely together even though the melody does not have to. Some latin and african styles rely heavily on what is called a “clave” (which is also mainly played with claves). It can be a simple figure like two quarter notes and three 8th notes with some swing 1, 2, 1-2-3 1,2,1-2-3 etc. All other rythms of whatever instrument or singers can now have many variations over the theme, but since they all support the clave, we have this feeling of common movement. E.g. I liked some of Sade’s music a lot in which you get that wonderful overall swing feeling due to the common clave.

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:05 pm

How come you need music theory for that? Couldn't you just use your ears and your DAWs "nudge" function for that?

Drag and drop a drum pattern that you like onto your DAW. Quantize it. Use the same quantize setting on your melody.

Put your melody at beat 1. If it sounds good there then keep it there?

If your melody doesn't sound good with the drums there at beat 1 then nudge the melody 1/8 note or whatever to the right?

Just keep nudging it till it's right to you?

I do it that way but I'm not that experienced. Is it wrong to do it that way?

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:15 pm

Wrong? No personal choice in music can be wrong unless you want to do it in certain established ways, However, if you are going to do a bossanova, tango, chachacha, rumba, salsa, samba etc. it could be a hard quest of trial-and-error compared to just using an already dedicated clave.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:05 pm

harryupbabble wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:05 pm How come you need music theory for that? Couldn't you just use your ears and your DAWs "nudge" function for that?

Drag and drop a drum pattern that you like onto your DAW. Quantize it. Use the same quantize setting on your melody.

How come one would want to know rather than just bullshit and remain clueless? Why are you even talking?
You need other people's MIDI to even start, don't you. How would your ears for it be anything based in no experience or knowledge?

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:21 pm

I feel like adding some more knowledge if only to balance that shit.

The clave rhythm is the same as the Bo Diddley beat. 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2; [rest], 2, 3, [rest],
Dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter; quarter rest, quarter, quarter, quarter rest basically.

Yeah with a minimum of talent one can simply ape that. The way to know how to DO IT will be in the doing. Downloading 20 thousand things off the internet and dicking about is an avoidance of doing it yourself. Chances are overwhelmingly high you aren't internalizing how beats feel in order to know what to nudge. If you know what I just typed, you aren't reliant on your idiot modus operandi, you may actually achieve it by your own hand, even if it's just a hand on the drumstick tool. FFS.

Also in the realm of a 4 [or 2] beat measure is the Hemiola. In which case there is a duality inside the compound time, a two emphasis against a three emphasis. 12/8 given as 4 *beats* subdivided into 12 8ths; if you want 6 beats there are 6 quarter notes. So the way this is often illustrated is from America, a number from West Side Story.

in 6/8, beat one underlined:
I want to be in A mer, i, ca. 1 2 3, 1 2 3 1 2, 1 2, 1 2. Also out of Afro-Cuban norms.

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:26 pm

Where did you get the idea the I use other people's midi? Can you please find the post of mine where you got that idea?

I need other people's random drum pattern generators. I don't have a single "other people's" midi.

If the random-generated drum pattern sounds like other people's midi, it would be coincidence. Unless the other people are also using the same drum-pattern generators at exactly the same time of the day that I used it then drum pattern duplication is unlikely to occur?

Especially if the drum pattern generator's are using "true randomizers"?

Besides, I reject 95 percent of what the generators spit out. Lots of auditioning experience that way. I'm worried of going deaf.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:27 pm

Quit wasting our time and screen space please.

Delta Sign · Post by **Delta Sign** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:33 pm

Just to add to the things already said:

Try counting out loud to your melody. It's a good practice to get better at feeling rhythms and time signatures. Also, like jancivil says, simply banging the rhythm with your hands on a table or something, ideally while counting, can help a lot to get better at these things.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:35 pm

When I was 12, I wanted to move on up from Mary, Mary by The Monkees to Fire by Jimi Hendrix.
I had a weekly drum teacher at the time. So I asked for help. Technically, what Mitch Mitchell was doing was beyond me so, unlike Mary, Mary which I was able to totally suss off the record, and since I was seeing this guy every Saturday for technical sort of training, I thought this would be diverting and useful. What he did was make me break it down to the component parts and write it all out: to begin with the hihat part, the snare drum part & the kick, and look at the parts independently.

This was proper tutelage. It amounted to some work but I did the thing and benefited from it. Why would someone do that?

Delta Sign · Post by **Delta Sign** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:43 pm

Yes, transcribing things you don't understand is definitely a good way of learning and internalizing new things. Transcribing forces you to listen very analytically and objectively, which is very useful to make things "click".

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:45 pm

I'm just responding to your false "use other people's midi" made up statement.

Anyways, I'm off to play speed scrabble. I also use the same "no study" principles there. It works.
Maybe it can work in music-making too?

The relationship between rhythm and melody, and figuring out the rhythm of a melody