Does Melody Even Matter??

[thecontrolcentre]

...and it ain't me that's gonna leave...

Hahaha. Did you borrow those words from the first Led Zeppelin album?

Are you thinking of ...
"Bay bay bay bay bay bay beep n baby,
I'm a gonna leave you ... "

Different song

[harryupbabble]

...and it ain't me that's gonna leave...

Hahaha. Did you borrow those words from the first Led Zeppelin album?

Are you thinking of ...
"Bay bay bay bay bay bay beep n baby,
I'm a gonna leave you ... "

Different song

Yes, I was thinking of that song. But oops, I just Googled it. The consensus seems to be that it's by a band named Sparks.

[Lotuzia]

Sparks 1st album : Kimono my house

[vurt]

...and it ain't me that's gonna leave...

Hahaha. Did you borrow those words from the first Led Zeppelin album?

Are you thinking of ...
"Bay bay bay bay bay bay beep n baby,
I'm a gonna leave you ... "

Different song

Yes, I was thinking of that song. But oops, I just Googled it. The consensus seems to be that it's by a band named Sparks.

the clue was the "kimono my house" that he was replying to

[fmr]

If something, academic music PRECLUDES anything else. Academic musicians started concrete music in late 40s and early 50s, and electronic music in the second half of 50s too, and never stopped evolving since then.

Jazz stays basically where it was 50 years ago.

I don't know at all what you want with the word 'precludes' there. It may be a translation problem.

My mistake. I wanted to say PRECEDES.

[jancivil]

Well, it tends to. For instance Satie did planed mixed fourths around 70 yrs before it appears in modern jazz. Although he did it before he went back to school.

OTOH Stravinsky wrote for Woody Herman's band specifically.

[IncarnateX]

Since this has become an anything goes thread, I think I will just babble on about polyphony to a big imaginary audience until everybody has left. So, here is another interesting case also posted earlier.

In Vienna, December 1813, a likely nervous Beethoven performed his 7th symphony at a charity concert for wounded soldiers from the Battle of Hanau. After the concert, he had a standing ovation, and people demanded his second part, Allegretto, to be played again. I have often wondered how many of them really knew what they heard, because it was deffo not one melody or main theme to be remembered, but two continually interacting melodies, eventually switching place as first and second voices a long the way. Further, they are both enhanced when the brasses feel like breaking free too with a little bambada tune (a small melodic segment in the lower octaves which I consider typical supportive counterpoint).

First the main theme is introduced with some old school somnolent harmonization, but then at 0.52, magic happens. The brasses finally get the idea at 1.38 and now we have one of the most friggin beautiful piece of polyphonical music I have heard from the dawn of romanticism.



Well, I am not sure I would be into music myself if there was no such things as melodies.

[vurt]

i see.

[Deep Purple]

Guys, can we stop all the talk about melody and keep this thread off topic?

Thanks

[fmr]

OTOH Stravinsky wrote for Woody Herman's band specifically.

That ignorant... How dared he?

Anyway, the Stravinsky that wrote that was a much more conservative guy than the one that wrote "The Rite of Spring" or the "The Firebid" many years before.

[Musicologo]

«I begin with Max Weber's idea of ra- tionalisation, which he saw as a process of maximising efficiency in relation to defined goals, and derive from this both some underlying principles (such as standardised measurement) and some problems: among these is the teleological conception of progress characteristic of traditional Western music historiography, and indeed the standard history of Western music is in essence a history of its modernisation.» - Nicholas Cook.

I was reading this and wondering if even when one considers this perspective shaped by these core values, then what the "peak" would be. In terms of song, Some scholars and musicians praise the line of Stevie Wonder/Quincy Jones, Zappa, Prog Rock, Take 6, Jacob Collier, Snarky Puppy, Mary kimura, etc.... That means: musical practices requiring virtuosity of a physical instrument, mostly real time playing and interaction and ability to create a consistent story often on the spot (intrincate melodic lines and complex harmonizations), that are never equal and for the most aren't fixed: each performance should be different. Invention and innovation are praised. This contrasts with the idea of a "writen down" notation to be later "performed" and imitated the same, and instead relies on the notion of "improvisation" that can be "fixed" only through recording, which then others might transcribe and imitate, but those "imitators" are not valued.

All other music practices are then considered "inferior" because of the "simplicity" of the musical materials and the lack of innovation or dexterity. Most pop music is seen as infantile because any 10 year old can play those, and imitate those.

Of course, everyone who starts from other kinds of values (for instance, most people who were not grown as "trained musicians" or don't play instruments) don't share them. Most of the time non-musicians just talk about lyrical content and the way vocals are delivered and the image of the singer. They care about tune, not about music (as in harmonies, complex rhythms, etc). The more music there is present, the less they like it. Historically, according to Lomax, this solo story presentation is a result of euro-asian complex societies so it is the base for folk song and later "western art music" and the majority of people in the world grew in this culture.

Others, also like music to coordinate with body movements, sensuality (Dance, syncopation) and be alienated. In those cases, only an interesting beat matters. Vocalizations might be small motives, short phrases and non sense lyrics. They would value those traits... etc, etc... Historically, as seen in Lomax, this was mostly true in African Societies, and due to slavery, then brought to America. These are the cultures that originated gospel, rhythm'n'blues and fused later with european folk song to originate jazz and rock.

In a nutshell, there a lot of different musical cultures and musical practices in the world, derived from different values and upbringing, prior exposition to musical materials, etc...

For all of those, who value a story being told by a human voice even when merged with danced/syncopated music - and I think this corresponds nowadays to the vast majority of word population - melody (embeded in song in form of a tune) is in fact the core and what matters most. Moreover, and derived to that they only appreciate "classical" music that replicates these traits, namely instrumental music when a clear tune is played by a monophonic instrument at all times and simple harmonies. That's why the likes of Andre Rieu orchestras and the repertoires of the likes of Mozart, Chopin noctures and Strass Waltzes are very much appreciated - they sound like songs without words, or accompanied tunes that one can whistle along. Since there are also a lot of non-trained musicians that grew up listening to the dance-syncopation traditions also, instrumental music that mimics the regular beats and dancing patters will also find an audience (hence the agreeability of Zimmer spiccato's and the likes). Everything else (so called contemporary music or free jazz or electroacustic music, etc) will have a hard time finding an audience among non-trained musicians.

[vurt]

«I begin with Max Weber's idea of ra- tionalisation, which he saw as a process of maximising efficiency in relation to defined goals, and derive from this both some underlying principles (such as standardised measurement) and some problems: among these is the teleological conception of progress characteristic of traditional Western music historiography, and indeed the standard history of Western music is in essence a history of its modernisation.» - Nicholas Cook.

I was reading this and wondering if even when one considers this perspective shaped by these core values, then what the "peak" would be. In terms of song, Some scholars and musicians praise the line of Stevie Wonder/Quincy Jones, Zappa, Prog Rock, Take 6, Jacob Collier, Snarky Puppy, Mary kimura, etc.... That means: musical practices requiring virtuosity of a physical instrument, mostly real time playing and interaction and ability to create a consistent story often on the spot (intrincate melodic lines and complex harmonizations), that are never equal and for the most aren't fixed: each performance should be different. Invention and innovation are praised. This contrasts with the idea of a "writen down" notation to be later "performed" and imitated the same, and instead relies on the notion of "improvisation" that can be "fixed" only through recording, which then others might transcribe and imitate, but those "imitators" are not valued.

All other music practices are then considered "inferior" because of the "simplicity" of the musical materials and the lack of innovation or dexterity. Most pop music is seen as infantile because any 10 year old can play those, and imitate those.

Of course, everyone who starts from other kinds of values (for instance, most people who were not grown as "trained musicians" or don't play instruments) don't share them. Most of the time non-musicians just talk about lyrical content and the way vocals are delivered and the image of the singer. They care about tune, not about music (as in harmonies, complex rhythms, etc). The more music there is present, the less they like it. Historically, according to Lomax, this solo story presentation is a result of euro-asian complex societies so it is the base for folk song and later "western art music" and the majority of people in the world grew in this culture.

Others, also like music to coordinate with body movements, sensuality (Dance, syncopation) and be alienated. In those cases, only an interesting beat matters. Vocalizations might be small motives, short phrases and non sense lyrics. They would value those traits... etc, etc... Historically, as seen in Lomax, this was mostly true in African Societies, and due to slavery, then brought to America. These are the cultures that originated gospel, rhythm'n'blues and fused later with european folk song to originate jazz and rock.

In a nutshell, there a lot of different musical cultures and musical practices in the world, derived from different values and upbringing, prior exposition to musical materials, etc...

For all of those, who value a story being told by a human voice even when merged with danced/syncopated music - and I think this corresponds nowadays to the vast majority of word population - melody (embeded in song in form of a tune) is in fact the core and what matters most.

good lord!

[donkey tugger]

Most of the time non-musicians just talk about lyrical content and the way vocals are delivered and the image of the singer. They care about tune, not about music (as in harmonies, complex rhythms, etc). The more music there is present, the less they like it.

I'm f**ked then.

[Bombadil]

Max Weber was a musician?

[donkey tugger]

Max Weber was a musician?

'The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism - very catchy number, keep humming it at work.