Does Melody Even Matter??

[IncarnateX]

Does this mean that you understood what it was about and can give us a short recap, Jan?

[jancivil]

It's all a bit confused, from my perspective at this moment. There are supposedly differing values, people that are very interested and people who aren't really. And then the people who are look down on simplicity and have complex reasons for seeing infantilizing for what it is, because they're snobs or somewhat.

<It's much easier to regurgitate some half-assed reading of musicology and pretend it's a science than to study music> is at the heart of that, I think.

[jancivil]

If anybody doubts this 'dumbing down' kind of statement as true, I would point to this song as #22 on the charts in 1957





it's not like all the people who bought this record were "trained musicians", we just hadn't been trained like dogs to accept what people accept today as music. Which to get into how this happened is Hyde Park Corner material in the end so I won't.
It's no accident.

[fmr]

Are we still discussing melody and whether it does matter or not?

[vurt]

Are we still discussing melody and whether it does matter or not?

no, weve moved on to whether the masons can turn you in to a frog (or other amphibian) or not?

[jancivil]

Who is this 'we'?

[vurt]

julie london

[jancivil]

NB: My father named my sister after that singer, and he was neither "grown as a trained musician" nor did he carry through to any notable ability on any instrument, didn't know any music theory, couldn't read rhythms (I tried!), but gravitated to "progressive jazz" because... I couldn't say why in the least. The quality of the man as a person, his soul?

So the whole story told there by "Musicologo" is just a story, and it doesn't seem particularly grounded in... anything. It's bullshit.
I don't go for that like it's a lecture here, it's just fatuous and obnoxious to try it.

[jancivil]

OH here we go:

starbucks-music-is-driving-employees-nuts

Lede: Adam Johnson compared use of music at businesses to tactics used at Guantanamo

[jancivil]

OTOH there is:

these minimal experimental soundscapes engaged with a deeper mindset

[IncarnateX]

Ok, I stick to the Bernstein Video where he shows of wonderful educational skills, though among his audience seems youngsters too young to really care even if they understood. Some has a more blank expression than others. But fair enough, there are tunes, themes and motifs, and we can stick to that or whatever as long as it does not contradict any of my points about polyphony. I can not see why it should, motifs are great for supportive counterpoint, themes are good for variation and development, while tunes are good for tunes. And since I favor polyphony, they are even welcome all at once given the composer knows his shit. And that is the best I can make of it for now.

[Musicologo]

So the whole story told there by "Musicologo" is just a story, and it doesn't seem particularly grounded in... anything. It's bullshit.

This is just insulting. I provided references for everything I condensed. The "story" I tried to condense is grounded in decades of research by dozens of scientists who studied and were on the field all over the world, in many music cultures. I might not have been able to condense it very well because I'm no native english, but simply dismiss the work of so many people as "bulshit" and "not grounded in anything" is akin to climate change denialism or the sorts... It seems you have a recurring problem with Musicology in general and keep dismissing it as not a real science. I would just kindly suggest to read the original references I provided, namely the Lomax chapter, and make better summaries than my own and draw your own conclusions.

All I tried to do to anwer to the op question (which is a complex one), was try to provide an overview based on scientific knowledge that there are many different music cultures in the world, derived from different expressive cultures. Each of these cultures valued different parameters along time. Therefore, in the end I was trying to explain WHY for some people some parameters are taken for granted and are great and for others they don't matter at all. And which ones seem to matter and which ones don't seem to matter.

So yes, While you see pop music and infantile and take that for granted and don't need to "defend" your position, I think it needs to be explained. Not only WHY jan thinks pop music is infantile, but MOST trained musicians think it's infantile, and SO many others don't think it is (they think it's great). The same way belive it or not there are reasons WHY your father, if he was not a trained musician valued progressive jazz... the same way WHY kids in Brazil who were illeterate in the 60's and however were gravitated to bossa nova and you'd find 12 year olds playing incredible complex harmonies.
All those things have explanations, and It's interesting to find them. They're not strawman. And exposure in infancy (and why and how that exposure happened) is a key thing.

Finally: of course, melody matters to WHOM, when and where and why? That was what I was trying to explain. Obviously the answer is really complex. I'm sorry If I am not able to do better in forum posts, but in my head believe me it's clear which cultures and individuals tend to value which kind of practices and why, Lomax resumed it all, Bernstein as well...

[Lotuzia]

I love Julie London * , and I love Bossa Nova. So that ........ Should I be confused now ?

(Mostly Love for sale cover but Cry me a river is hmmm too, it's just That I've played it too often probably)

[jancivil]

A theme is a tune frequently enough. Yes, a popular song for the commercial market is not going to feature development.
I don't know any musician that looked down on a good tune. I have always been steeped in music and my friends have been musicians. Except, I was close with a woman for a time who was NOT a musician, but like my father gravitated to more fully developed musics or what used to be known as 'progressive' types of music. We listened to the same music, and it's music most never heard of. it's a function of intelligence and a quality of mind. Sorry, but it is.

If the notion is to foster division between people who are interested and 'normal regular folk', whatever, that's a bit dull afaic. There is a natural gap between levels of intelligence and curiosity, and education which may accrue or doesn't.

There is a lack of good tunes today - I've been out enough to have a pretty good idea of it over years now - for that matter. A lack of melody is the same as a lack of good in a tune. There is no necessary dichotomy. You could construct what technically is correct according to this or another metric and it be a mediocre or poor tune. It struck me as wanting a division according to technique. A good tunesmith has technique, though.

I don't find any need to take things which are stupid, which are designed relying on a populace which has been infantilized (a feature of society present at the time I was born, surely), for what it is as some deficit in myself or like having it framed as such. It pissed me off. Your writing is anything but critical thought.

[jancivil]

I love Julie London * , and I love Bossa Nova. So that ........ Should I be confused now ?

interesting. My father loved Julie London, and particularly in Stan Kenton's band, and my mother really went for that Bossa Nova craze, which my father kind of tolerated.

Stan Getz bridges the gap some.