The relationship between rhythm and melody, and figuring out the rhythm of a melody

[IncarnateX]

[memory mess removed]
Edit: actually he wanted us to count this one in 6 and not twelwe. Memory fail, but there were so many other we had to count in 12.

Edit 2: Damn it, my memory mix up tunes. Actually as far as I remember, Kalahari was written in 6/4, not 4/4 triplets as said. There were other tunes that were written in 4/4 triplets and where he wanted us to count in 12.

Case is, he could not play anything in 4/4 without at least pushing to feel toward 12 and sometimes my ears just placed him somewhere in between. Maybe that was really his personal signature.

[jancivil]

it's more 4 beats than 2. I was after a kind of joke because your story of the guy means it can't be duple time.
If I taught it, 12/8. It'd be triplets all the time as 4/4.

[IncarnateX]

it's more 4 beats than 2.

If I taught it, 12/8. It'd be triplets all the time as 4/4.

Pheew. If you had told him that at the start of a session, there would be no session but one looooong talk about it. And it would take you to the code of the universe (which is not 42 but 12) and the fact that you do not know shit because you are just a spoiled little white child who has no clue about what your race has stolen from the black.

And if you said: “But Emmanuel, it is written i 4/4”, he would go: “Yes, so fools can read it, don’t count on them, count in 12.”

We learned the lesson fast and thus what NOT to speak with him about. So lets count in 6 and 12 for (the black) Christ’s sake and be happy when it is embodied and you don’t have to count any more. Jeez.

[jancivil]

It doesn't matter, 2 beats or 4 beats. I change my mind in midstream. 2 is easier to convey as a conductor, down, up. Done.

If you literally count, eleven has too many syllables at the tempo it would be at as 12/8. If you literally have to count that you're a moron, however.
There's 4 beats consistently expressed triplet-ly. If there's nothing but triplets you should teach it as the compound time.

[IncarnateX]

Well, Kalahari is easy to grasp in 6/4. You simply go for the tom as 1: Boom 2 3 4 5 6 Boom 2 3 4 5 6 Boom....

And then ensure that your subdivision is felt in 12 and that you do not push it toward 4/4 triplets by accent, which he often corrected us for: “No, what are doing..you are pushing the feeling toward 4, this is not a waltz.”

Since I played perc and not instruments on most we did I did not care much about the notation on the sheet, but simply tried to hold the feeling he wanted. And he did not like compound meters at all in the first place. E.g. he would not think of 6/4 as a compound meter really, but simply 6 beats with subdivision of 2 pr beat = 12. Using compound meters was to him a compromise because we simply haven’t invented the right notation system yet, which is not build on 4 but (take a wild guess).

[metrognome]

All this talk of rhythmic divisions brings to mind a 'secret' taught to me decades ago by a drummer in a band I had just joined as a bass player.
"You move their hips. I'll move their feet. Think in two."
"Left -right, up-down, forward-back. That's what rhythm does."
"If you just want to splash colors on the canvas you need to go it alone. We play together to make people shake their booty and not trip over their own feet."
(that was way before anybody had heard of twerking lol)

"Listen to the rhythm of the spoken words in nursery rhymes."

Jack and Jill
went up a hill
to fetch a pail of water

Jill fell down
and broke her crown
and Jack came tumbling after

Old McDonald had a farm

And they swam and they swam all over the dam

[jancivil]

The thing that irritated me so badly in the exchange I was on about was the dogged insistence that 12/8, 12 beats is strictly speaking 4 beats.

It's useful and perhaps the best if not only way to notate this, but the feeling is 6 beats. The guy absolutely refused 12/8 as 6 beats.
http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.10.16. ... burns.html


At that point it's strictly from pendantry to argue such things.

[jancivil]

Ok, the sublink isn't a real link. Figure 23 on that page.

Well, Kalahari is easy to grasp in 6/4. You simply go for the tom as 1: Boom 2 3 4 5 6 Boom 2 3 4 5 6 Boom....

And then ensure that your subdivision is felt in 12 and that you do not push it toward 4/4 triplets by accent, which he often corrected us for: “you are pushing the feeling toward 4”

Since I played perc and not instruments on most we did I did not care much about the notation on the sheet, but simply tried to hold the feeling he wanted. And he did not like compound meters at all in the first place. E.g. he would not think of 6/4 as a compound meter really, but simply 6 beats with subdivision of 2 pr beat = 12. Using compound meters was to him a compromise because we simply haven’t invented the right notation system yet, which is not build on 4 but (take a wild guess).

It makes sense, it contains both. But as it contains both it is by definition compound meter.

[IncarnateX]

At that point it's strictly from pendantry to argue such things.

Yup and at that point I am off playing long ago myself. Half of Emmanuel’s sayings and corrections would be incomprehensible to us, while others became clear and meaningful, e.g. the accent issue on which he was sensitive and right on many occasions, GIVEN that the tune really was supposed to be played in straight 6 or 12 to begin with. But since all time measures in the world orginates from 12, including the western perversions, how could it be refused that it should be?

And yes, it is pr. definition a compound meter but such definition sucks to the extent it is not based on 12. He had strange ways to fit any time measure with 12 by simply multiplying with 12. And yes, if you do that everything can be subordinated 12 but from the point of notation, it simply gets absurd at the speed of light.

[jancivil]

Well, Kalahari is easy to grasp in 6/4. You simply go for the tom as 1: Boom 2 3 4 5 6 Boom 2 3 4 5 6 Boom....

6/8 twice amounts to 12/8. 6/4 vs 12/8 is 6 quarters vs 4 dotted.
So the example from the African rhythm page is notated in 12/8 but the feel is 6. IE: a 3 feel.

The Kalahari is a 4 feel. Right?

[jancivil]

This is a favorite of mine as establishing a 6/8 (or 12/8) but once we're deep in the instrumental section the emphasis shits to a 3/4, an ambiguity which the drummer plays with a lot. At the outset of the section, total hemiola and the 3 is almost like triplet quarters, then that accent finally sticks.

[jancivil]

wrong thread.

[IncarnateX]

The Kalahari is a 4 feel. Right?

As you noted it contains both but it would be straight 6 with subdiv of 12 according to Emmanuel. Though, if needed, he would at any time prefer to notate in 2 x 2 rather than 4. Main rule is simply to avoid 4/4 with accent on one, accents that turns 12 into triplets, and any “base” feeling of 4 as far as possible. In other cases, the rules can be a little different, e.g. in polyrythmics 4 is allowed but he would always se that 2, 6 or 12 is base feeling. So no ambiguity, which I OTOH find really interesting about polyrhythmics, namely that your perception can shift between the feels.

[jancivil]

Well, in that track on the Youtube he does not avoid accent on one at all. It's a 4 feel. The African thing is a 6 feel, on the simple level.

[IncarnateX]

Well, in that track on the Youtube he does not avoid accent on one at all. It's a 4 feel. The African thing is a 6 feel, on the simple level.

I am not sure I follow you here. Accent (tom) is on 1 in 6/4 and that is what keeps the division overall (tune has a minor accent on 4 which is also part of the feel, though not played by the tom). A 4/4 base feel would here be accent on 1 every forth beat. In his subdiv he may use 2 x 2 or even 4 (but it would surprise me) occasionally as long as it does not change the base feel of 6. To me, it doesn’t but I am brainwashed, so 6 it is for me too. I just follow the tom. Below the 6 you could count 4 but he would not certainly not urge you to do that. So, 6 it is, straight ahead, keep the accent, make your variations but count in 6 until you luckily forget it.

Though, what you refer to may be that despite his own efforts to be very twelwy, he sometimes push himself in between the feels in his subdiv. As written somewhere above, it is a kind of signature sound. It is also present in this recording, like he sometimes is stumbling. It makes his sound organic and special to me but I am sure it is not intended.

Well, maybe it is all about that he is pissed that he is born in the states and not deep Africa and that the curse of 4/4 got him too.