First official SONAR 4 review is in!

[JeffSanders]

Sonar 4 is giving me a god damn Chubby right now.

I love it. Navigator, Freeze, Track Layers, Folder Tracks, PowR dither...improved audio engine. It's killer.

[Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]]

It feels good to read all the positive posts about SONAR 4. Makes all the hard work and long hours worthwhile.

Does anyone know if it now handles VSTs natively or does it still require a wrapper like in previous versions?

Doesn't look like it, no. Which is a shame in my view. Native VST might have swayed me for sure. As it is, I'm not sure...

SONAR's wrapper is nothing more than a software component that happens to be shipped separately and only loosely coupled to the main application. If we did "native" VST support, really all we would be doing is taking the bits of it that are visible outside SONAR, and either hide them or integrate them. Functionally there would be no difference.

Something else that might help to understand: as of SONAR 3, SONAR's audio engine uses a design that isn't DirectX, nor is it VST. It's a home-grown architecture that was created to better support multiprocessors, and at the time (for SONAR 3) was seen as a first stop towards getting us to a surround implementation.

So the fact is, as of SONAR 3, even DirectX plugins are "wrapped"! (Albeit internally.)

I think using a wrapper for VST(i) is a better situation overall. If some incompatability is found, we can correct the problem by a very small wrapper udpate, instead of a full application update.

-----
Ron Kuper
Cakewalk

[kuniklo]

It feels good to read all the positive posts about SONAR 4. Makes all the hard work and long hours worthwhile.

I'm very impressed with how much you managed to accomplish in the upgrade from 3 to 4. I expected you address some combination of folder tracks, freeze, and track layers, but I didn't think you'd manage them all. Nice work!

No matter what sequencer you use you have to be grateful that the there's so much healthy competition in the market and so many viable choices, unlike a lot of other software markets.

[headquest]

I think using a wrapper for VST(i) is a better situation overall. If some incompatability is found, we can correct the problem by a very small wrapper udpate, instead of a full application update.

I see your point!

Will there be a demo at some point ? - I'm very interested in S4

[koorby]

Anyone who looks at one of the most complicated screens Sonar could generate, then deciding 'the ui is too cluttered' well... deserves what they get

Lets remember the point of those crazy looking screenshots is to show HOW complex a project you COULD in theory create with the app.

One of the most complicated screens? Forgive me Eric, but isn't that screenshot I posted the basic sequencer page with the track inspector to the left and the tracks list to the right, plus the default toolbars at the top? This I believe, is the default view Sonar 3/4 displays when you first fire it up?

My post probably sounded like Sonar bashing, but really I respect S3/4, Cubase, Logic et al, since they have the bulk of the market share. I just don't think that they have moved on from sequencing metaphors which have bogged users down for 1.5 decades now.

[koorby]

Koorby quoth This is supposed to look like Tracktion???? Hahahaha!

Pay attention. Someone said the NAVIGATOR looked like Traktion.

Who's been smoking pot?

You?

What a friggin nightmare of an interface.

Nope. Its all quite clear to someone who knows what they're doing.

I am damn glad I ebay'd my Sonar 3.11 while I still could.

Except that the person who bought has no legitimate upgrade path.

My god, just looking at this screenshot makes me feel dizzy.

Awwww. Dont look then.

And this is before I pop up any of the 127 possible layered windows?

Or hide any stuff you dont want.

/end rant.

It wasnt a rant, it was pointless masquerading of opinion as some kind of enlightened fact.

Enjoy S4 suckers!

And you enjoy whatever piece of software you use to make music. Arsehole.

Ouch! Overly defensive aren't we whyterabbyt? To call someone an arsehole over a post ... a bit sensitve I think.

Incidentaly, and I know you don't give a damn, but I really , really tried to love Sonar3PE. After all, I'd paid like US$400 for it, so it had to be good right? And yes, I do enjoy using Tracktion to make music.

But arseholes like me aren't allowed opinions are we?

[AD80]

I got 2 questions about the Sonar wrapper. Do you have to convert VST's to DXi's like Directxiter. Or doest it just open the VST's directly from the wrapper? Also does the wrapper allow for FX PDC on inserts? Thanks.

[WillieJenkins]

qa

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

I got 2 questions about the Sonar wrapper. Do you have to convert VST's to DXi's like Directxiter. Or doest it just open the VST's directly from the wrapper? Also does the wrapper allow for FX PDC on inserts? Thanks.

The workflow for the Cakewalk adapter is that you start it up, select your VST folder (or you can specify multiple VST folders) and then let it scan all the effects and instruments in your VST folder (and its subfolders) in one pass. In that sense, it's much like the way Cubase SX, FL Studio, Orion, Chainer, et. al. do their scans. The main difference is that you can run the Cakewalk adapter -- again, think of it as a VST/VSTi scanner -- independently of Sonar. Once the scan is finished, all of your effects and instruments show up in Sonar ready to use.

The Cakewalk adapter lets you specify as many VST folders as you want. Plus, you can set global properties to be applied to all scanned plugins or you can set properties on individual plugins -- to change a name as it is to appear in Sonar, for example.

You can set a flag on a given plugin to enable PDC for that plugin -- and the PDC works in every context in Sonar, including inserts.

One advantage over the scanning approach of Cubase SX, for example, is that it doesn't have to run every time you start Sonar. You can run it once and then start up Sonar as many times as you like without having to wait for a scan to finish each time you start; that's one of the reasons why Sonar starts up so quickly.

The main difference from DirectiXer is that you can scan an entire VST folder (or multiple VST folders) all in one pass -- again, the way almost all VST hosts do it.

Hope that helps.

[AD80]

Hope that helps.

Yup thanks .

[Sepheritoh]

I am still on S3PE but I have now been convinced to upgrade to 4 as soon as possible. This weekend I worked with somebody in another studio that has Cubase. For me the workflow in Sonar in just sooo much quicker. With the enhancements in 4 things will work even better.

The one aspect of of Cubase that did impress me was the gapless audio engine. This other guy was inserting effects and deleting them by will, while recording or doing playback without even the slightest of gaps in the audio, and that was on a Mac G3. On my Sonar with a pentium 2.8Ghz I simply can not insert any delays or reverbs without gaps in the audio while recording.

Other than that, the workflow in Sonar won heads down. The so-called cluttered screen shots shown is the best part of Sonar. On one single screen you are able to control every aspect of the mix and recording. It migt take some time to get used to it, and it is highly configurable if you want it less cluttered.

[spaceman]

Koorby quoth This is supposed to look like Tracktion???? Hahahaha!

Pay attention. Someone said the NAVIGATOR looked like Traktion.

Who's been smoking pot?

You?

What a friggin nightmare of an interface.

Nope. Its all quite clear to someone who knows what they're doing.

I am damn glad I ebay'd my Sonar 3.11 while I still could.

Except that the person who bought has no legitimate upgrade path.

My god, just looking at this screenshot makes me feel dizzy.

Awwww. Dont look then.

And this is before I pop up any of the 127 possible layered windows?

Or hide any stuff you dont want.

/end rant.

It wasnt a rant, it was pointless masquerading of opinion as some kind of enlightened fact.

Enjoy S4 suckers!

And you enjoy whatever piece of software you use to make music. Arsehole.

Ouch! Overly defensive aren't we whyterabbyt? To call someone an arsehole over a post ... a bit sensitve I think.

one is forgiven for that if he was telling the truth though

[whyterabbyt]

Koorby quoth
Ouch! Overly defensive aren't we whyterabbyt? To call someone an arsehole over a post ... a bit sensitve I think.

Overly sensitive? Nope; I just have the traditional lack of tolerance for host and platform bigots. And if you're gong to feel free to call us 'suckas' for using one particular piece of software, then I think your stance grants me freedom to describe you as 'arsehole' for it.

Incidentaly, and I know you don't give a damn, but I really , really tried to love Sonar3PE. After all, I'd paid like US$400 for it, so it had to be good right?

It is good. It just doesnt suit you, it seems, but being good and suiting you are not mutually exclusive facts.

And yes, I do enjoy using Tracktion to make music.

Im glad. You'll notice I dont associate the appelation 'arsehole' with your choice of host, the way you seem to prefer to.

But arseholes like me aren't allowed opinions are we?

From the guy who called people 'suckas' because of their choice of host?

Maybe you ought to think a bit wider on that idea of respecting opinions.

[koorby]

From the guy who called people 'suckas' because of their choice of host?

Maybe you ought to think a bit wider on that idea of respecting opinions.

Suckers, I said, not 'suckas'. I respect your opinion, and anyone else's. You are the one who took personal offence at MY opinion and started the name calling.

Geez guys, don't take it so personally! I stand by what I said. $400+ ($1299 retail here in Oz) for Sonar 4 is bad value for money. $80 for Tracktion is more realistic. Do we all have to be Sonar fanboi's and extoll its virtues, when there is very little innovation and progress in these traditional, clunky, outdated bloatware sequencers?

Secondly, I am justified in saying that the Sonar interface is complex and cluttered, because it is. It has horrible GUI design, deperately small fonts on a hi-res screen, and crappy fiddly controls. It is an example of bad UI design and cramming esoteric features into a program for the sake it winning feature wars.

Am I saying this because I am stupid or confused by the interface? Nope. I used to cut code for a living, still cut HTML, and I'm technically proficient and build my own PC's. I can handle very complex concepts easily. But I find Sonar, Cubase and Logic actually get in the way of making music and disrupt the flow, try to make me conform to "old school" signal flows which were born in 1950's analog studios, and generally stuff in a lot of functions that quite frankly are not need to produce music.

So call me whatever names you wish, and defend your host to the death - I've expressed my opinion of Sonar3/4 and stand by it. Hooray for freedom of speech!

[whyterabbyt]

Koorby quoth

Suckers, I said, not 'suckas'. I respect your opinion, and anyone else's. You are the one who took personal offence at MY opinion and started the name calling.

Ummm, no. 'Suckers', 'suckas' or however you choose to say/spell it is a term of denigration intended to portray the fact that a person has been deluded or conned as a result of their incapacity to understand something.

So in fact, despite your attempts at protestation, you started the name calling.

Geez guys, don't take it so personally! I stand by what I said. $400+ ($1299 retail here in Oz) for Sonar 4 is bad value for money. $80 for Tracktion is more realistic.

You cannot judge in any way what any other person considers 'bad value for money'.

Do we all have to be Sonar fanboi's and extoll its virtues,

Do you have to keep maintaining this posture whereby you are some 'illuminated' and we only disagree with you for the stupidest of reasons?

I'd say that's you continuing the insults you started with, so once more, I'll respond in kind. You're still being an arsehole.

when there is very little innovation and progress in these traditional, clunky, outdated bloatware sequencers?

It may be 'traditional', but I find it neither 'clunky' nor outdated, nor do I consider a broad and comprehensive feature set to be 'bloatware'.

New and different is not good. It is just new and different.
Small and feature restricted is not necessarily good, either.

Secondly, I am justified in saying that the Sonar interface is complex and cluttered, because it is.

No it isnt. Thats an opinion, and many people disagree.

It is an example of bad UI design

That doesnt mean what you think it does.

and cramming esoteric features into a program for the sake it winning feature wars.

Which 'esoteric' features are solely in the GUI for the sake of 'winning feature wars'. Exactly.

Am I saying this because I am stupid or confused by the interface? Nope.

Ah, its because your a Tracktion 'fanboi' then is it? Cant be happy with your own host unless you've got to bolster your own self-worth by slagging off everyone else on the basis of their choice.

How sad.

But I find Sonar, Cubase and Logic actually get in the way of making music and disrupt the flow, try to make me conform to "old school" signal flows which were born in 1950's analog studios

Ummm, right. Damn those old-school signal flows and the troubles they cause when people try to make music.

Because that infinitely flexible bus routing stuff is a real throwback.

and generally stuff in a lot of functions that quite frankly are not need to produce music.

Who the hell are you to judge what a given user does and does not need? Let alone tens of thousands of users?

So call me whatever names you wish

Well you started the name-calling, so no wonder you defend it.

and defend your host to the death - I've expressed my opinion of Sonar3/4 and stand by it.

How wonderful for you.

Hooray for freedom of speech!

Umm, yeah.