Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

[ophiel27]

Hello everyone. First post here. Hope I'm doing this right.

I'm playing a chord on a Fender Rhodes plugin. It's A# G B F. Sounds super weird and I like it.

My theory knowledge is poor at best, so I use Google and find a piano chord finder, enter the chord, and it says no chords found. Closest one is G7#9.

Looking at the notes in G7#9, my chord looks like the 4th inversion of the chord, but my chord also drops the D.

What would the theory behind dropping the D out of the inverted chord be?

Thanks for any and all help.

[jancivil]

Well, if you have to identify it as a straIght thirds construction, that's the name.

A whole lot of jazz leaves out the fifth, especially with chords like this. For that matter the Foxy Lady chord is a #9 with no fifth. Root, M3, m7, #9. Chord finder is flat wrong 'no chord found'. Yet another reason to not do that
Albeit one could just say G7 Bb/A# bass. But you can go all day with no fifth in jazz practice. If you need a legit reason, it's the least essential part of a 7th chord, particularly when the root has enough energy to already be sounding its second harmonic.

BTW, there is a fairly famous instance where Schoenberg (before teh 12-tone) came up with a 4th inversion harmony (by ear actually) and a group refused to perform it.

[ophiel27]

Hey thanks a ton for the help with this. I've been trying to decipher what I'm playing for awhile now, and I'm getting the feeling that learning the basics would make my life a whole lot easier.

With all of these YouTube videos on "negative harmony" floating around today it's interesting to see that there was a time when individuals would flat out refuse to play a chord because it doesn't exist naturally!

[jancivil]

Someone argued here 'there is no such thing as ninth in the bass'. I kind of remembered this from my first chromatic harmony course.

Also I recall a so-called masters class in composition where someone mentioned a sharp 9 chord and the instructor actually said there is no such thing, thats a major/minor chord. So you could call it that but there's 2 thirds. All pretty academic. Definitions may depend on function.
I come up with things writing linearly there could never be a very good name with, all these suspended moments that never land on anything. Let alone the inbetween (microtonal) clusters. Keep experimenting, do the interest.

[stanlea]

Just a question you mention A# G B F : if these notes are in order on the keyboard, can you post a picture of your hand ?

[ophiel27]

I'm using an Arturia Keystep controller with mini keys

I have to use both hands to grab the chord too. Not sure if it's doable on an actual Rhodes?

[moonmadness]

i only use triads, maybe adding a 6th or either flavor of 7th when needed.

'real' chords don't have notes that are next to each other, like your A# and B.
or more precisely, that's the definition i give it.
the smallest interval i work with is a major 2nd, or 2 semi-tones, in plain English.
edited for mistake


otherwise, things would get out of hands, trying to learn and manage all this stuff.
limitations ARE good, sometimes.

[Jbravo]

'real' chords don't have notes that are next to each other, like your A# and B.
or more precisely, that's the definition i give it.
the smallest interval i work with is a minor 2nd, or 2 semi-tones, in plain English.

otherwise, things would get out of hands, trying to learn and manage all this stuff.
limitations ARE good, sometimes.

isn't that a major 2nd?

[moonmadness]

no, a major 2nd is 2 semi-tones
A# is the same as Bb

so Bb to B

[Jbravo]

In your previous post you say that a minor second is two semitones

[moonmadness]

In your previous post you say that a minor second is two semitones

my bad, you are right!
i'm feeling lian an a$$ right now, how embarassing.

tnx mate!
Ii'll fix it, and get a few more cups of coffe.

[Jbravo]

Phew! You were giving me a confuse

[moonmadness]

haha! sorry mate.
maybe i should cut down on the ganja for breakfast. lol

[jancivil]

i only use triads, maybe adding a 6th or either flavor of 7th when needed.

'real' chords don't have notes that are next to each other, like your A# and B.
or more precisely, that's the definition i give it.

Why should we care about your definition? It's bogus. And "either flavor of 7th" is ignorant.
There are three. Diminished, minor, major.

A chord of the ninth, tertially: root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th;
from G, spelled G B D F A. The quality of the intervals is up for grabs.
G Bb Db Fb A, for example, diminished triad, diminished 7th, major 9th. We may want to space it, by some musical idea or something, with the A and Bb in close voicing. It is that harmony, no matter what. It's a real chord by any known definition of a chord by thirds. Gº7 9. Make the fifth 'perfect', Gm9. With the A and Bb as a semitone neighbor, we might call it Gm add2. Real chord. A Bb D G, Gm add 2 A in the bottom, an inversion. Use case is rather prevalent.

G B D F Ab; G7b9. The tertial construction holds in any inversion.
We might get into an ambiguous naming situation at some point; F Ab Cb Ebb G is a possibility, Fº7 9.
The #9 was not considered meaningful at all to the one individual the one day in my experience, but I didn't care about his definition 'it's not a real chord' either. It's just an opinion. He insisted on 'major/minor' chord. Ignorant of jazz, I suppose, where, eg., a #9 to b9 is a thing. G7 with A# to Ab, the Ab then resolves to G on a C harmony.
You might want to call the Foxy Lady chord, F# A# E Gx a major/minor chord and say the 9th is A. It's rather academic as it doesn't function, it just sits there. Over a real dominant 7th (a V7 with a goal of a I), it may function.

[jancivil]

otherwise, things would get out of hands, trying to learn and manage all this stuff.
limitations ARE good, sometimes.

That's all you can manage, fine, but that's not a real definition.

You stated you want to use less vocabulary (sure, you don't want to use more than is needed but that's just specific use case) and then that you were ignorant of the dim 7th as even existing.
But this is Intro to Music Theory material.