Layering Synth Sounds

[Cinebient]

Audio demos or it did not happen
Indeed great conversation. I´m no expert at all, just trying different things with different tools and judging what my ears tell me.
Back to the FX, i really experienced that if i choose to use FX it works much much better and it sounds more detailed still with several layers if i put my FX as insert per instance and not sending all synths trough the same send f.e.
If i send huge sounds trough the same reverb and/or delay instance it gets really fast very muddy and washy. So polyphony also at FX, distortion, saturation etc. is (at least for me) mostly the way to get a huge but still kind of pronounced and not to washy/muddy layer. But like i said i´m no expert and it might be nonsense from other people view.

[VELLTONE MUSIC]

yezz... dynamic and diversity :):)

[vurt]

a simple one.
synth pad with modulation (or more than one for layering)
multiple sends, to delays with varying feedback and delay times.
automate the sends, each delay getting different moments of the same sound, with the right delay settings can sound nice.
with multiple layers of synths automate the different sends at different times for a massive ever moving soundscape

[elxsound]

Sometimes you don’t need to layer at all.

Unfortunately it seems the advice given for fixing “one dimensional” mixes is to layer, layer and layer more.

With a good understanding of mixing you can create depth without layering synths which often can create more problems especially at the mixing stage.

Mixing includes using tools to add harmonics as well as choosing placement to create depth without needing to layer multiple synths.

[mtelesha]

I use Element a VST Host and use one MIDI device to control my synths and effects. I usually use this live playing keyboard. I can turn on and off sounds.

My favorite is I use 1) True Piano 2) DIva with a warm pad 3) Organ with a rotary speaker simulator 4 - ?) Some synth with an arp

It allows me to really get some awesome sounds with only playing one keyboard. I have started using the VST Host.

[vurt]

Sometimes you don’t need to layer at all.

Unfortunately it seems the advice given for fixing “one dimensional” mixes is to layer, layer and layer more.

With a good understanding of mixing you can create depth without layering synths which often can create more problems especially at the mixing stage.

Mixing includes using tools to add harmonics as well as choosing placement to create depth without needing to layer multiple synths.

yeah, im not talking about for fixing anything.
im talking about as a compositional tool
mixing is a totally different topic (for me anyway) this is more sound design than production to me

[SparkySpark]

Vurt,
What delay times would you recommend (and did you mean two or to?)?

multiple sends, to delays with varying feedback and delay times.

[vurt]

Vurt,
What delay times would you recommend (and did you mean two or to?)?

multiple sends, to delays with varying feedback and delay times.

it was "to".
usually a minimum of 3 delays,
one fairly short, more of a reverb type sound than delay, using more feedback.
a second roughly half delay, with less feedback but still a fair few repeats.
then the 3rd max delay time with maybe one or two repeats.

delay time and feedback are really to taste, and if you double up those delays, but alter delay times slightly, then hard pan the returns.
it's all about experimenting with the simple to create the illusion of something more intricate

hope that helps

[zzz00m]

Interesting suggestions. I have always loved layering several synth parts, going back to the days when I used hardware. Triggering several synth modules via MIDI from a single keyboard. Or even by using some factory presets in digital ROMplers that were multi-timbral based performances, also known as multis or combis, showed me the power of layering sounds.

This is even easier to do (or overdo) today with soft synths and FX chains in the box today.

I like the proposed idea of using no more than 3 layers to begin with, and carving out the space for each.

Another concept to consider is how a composer writes a symphony for many players. The orchestra could be very large, but you will rarely if ever see them all playing in unison together. Instrument sections or solo players are brought in and out of the performance, and each has a sonic space to work in, with regard for the timbre and frequency range, and well as the attack and articulation being used. That process results in a coherent blended sound at any given time. Think how chaotic and muddy it would get if the entire orchestra played at once!

I realize this is a discussion on sound design, not arrangement or production, but I think some of the same principles apply to creating a layered sound.

As the frequency ranges for each layer, the timing of the ADSR envelopes for attack and decay, the placement in the stereo stage are all important. Also a mixing technique can be applied to carve out space for each layer. Use EQ to roll off frequencies that are not necessary for the main sound of each layer. But some experimentation is necessary here, as you may want to retain harmonics on the upper frequencies. So probably best to start with rolling off unwanted bass frequencies.

Your ears should be your main tool.

[elxsound]

Sometimes you don’t need to layer at all.

Unfortunately it seems the advice given for fixing “one dimensional” mixes is to layer, layer and layer more.

With a good understanding of mixing you can create depth without layering synths which often can create more problems especially at the mixing stage.

Mixing includes using tools to add harmonics as well as choosing placement to create depth without needing to layer multiple synths.

yeah, im not talking about for fixing anything.
im talking about as a compositional tool
mixing is a totally different topic (for me anyway) this is more sound design than production to me

I was talking about the linked article, in particular the “Similar Sounds” sections where he/she mentioned about thickening sounds. There’s some good things in that section too, but similar sound is brought up in another part where again I think its important for especially those just starting out that its not always about layering to get a sound.

We have so many tools at our disposal for thickening with saturation, micro pitch shifting + delay, smart/creative use of delay and dynamic tools that sometimes again, layering might not be the right think to look for.

Layering for sake of composition is another story/topic.

[Adrian Earnshaw Music]

Some quality suggestions going on here. What I was considering at point 2 of the article was as a way of sound design. You can easily layer a patch that has a soft attack with another that has more crunch on the attack phase.

I agree that there are other ways of sound design and layering a patch is not always necessary. In fact, you have given me an idea for another article and I will be sure to include some sound examples this time.

[SparkySpark]

Biodiode: great article! Good advice and well- written.

Vurt: thanks for the explanation regarding delay times.

I've created an angelic/atmospheric MUX synth based on layered sine and close to sine waves, called Temperance. In case someone would like to, and since this is a thread on layering, I would welcome feedback on what else to add. Here is a video of it:


There is also a short discussion about it here: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=517494&p=7272442#p7272442

There are four synths, each with their own volume, attack envelopes, modulation LFO, sweep EQs and sends to a pingpong delay plus an EQ and a reverb. Since sine waves rapidly build up there is also a limiter under the hood.

Each synth has its own character: synth 1 is a sine synth and it has a sub synth double; synth 2 is a triangle synth; synth 3 mixes choir and strings; synth 4 is a high treble synth. Synths 2 and 4 also have selectable octaves on the frontpanel.

So... what could I add to this layer beast?

[vurt]

You can easily layer a patch that has a soft attack with another that has more crunch on the attack phase.

yeah this is similar to how a lot of people (not me) make their drums (I don't really use drums) the click from one kick drum the rumble sustain from another.

with synth patches, you can "morph" between the patches too, using volume fades, morph from an angelic ooh to a screaming banshee through big ass reverb

[vurt]

Vurt: thanks for the explanation regarding delay times.

no problem at all
but really there is no rule to it, whatever works for a given sound
just have fun with it.

[Adrian Earnshaw Music]

This is so easy to achieve in Omnisphere with CC control and Stack mode. I put a little video together explaining how to do this kind of morphing -