First official SONAR 4 review is in!

[wrench45us]

I'm particularly interested in MIDI sequencing programmes which will run as ReWire slaves within Audition

you might want to audition Project 5

[stand back take a breath, look for flying objects]

P-5 has its fanatics and its detractors, but Midi esiting / sequencing is its focus. I find the piano roll editing much more intuitive in P-5 than FLS, but it seems that once one has adapted to an editing convention, it's not always easy to change.

[headquest]

you might want to audition Project 5

Yes, it got great reviews - looked like it might combine the best of Reason and FL in one programme but I never quite got around to giving the demo the time it undoubtedly deserves.

Perhaps now would be a good time to take another look

[stand back take a breath, look for flying objects]

Yes, people can be a bit touchy about programme recommendations. I've come in for some stick for liking Reason, but hey, it works for me!

Thanks for being brave - coming out! - and giving me a tip !

P-5 has its fanatics and its detractors, but Midi esiting / sequencing is its focus. I find the piano roll editing much more intuitive in P-5 than FLS, but it seems that once one has adapted to an editing convention, it's not always easy to change.

Very true - but I'm not yet stuck in the mud, and I'm still looking for a better setup (but definitely now with Audition at its heart!)

Cheers

[stale bread]

wow hadn't checked this thread in a bit, missed all the good stuff.

whyterabbyt, i think theres been some confusion do to the way you two guys talk, but what he was saying is that in live 4,

you have your softsynths and efx listed from top to bottom on the left side of the screen.

you simply drag an icon (lets say trilogy) from the ever present browser onto a blank space on the screen and a midi track is automaticly created, or you can double click the vsti and a midi track is created.

the midi track that is created is connected to the vsti that you selected but it is not hardwired, for instance if I program some stuff with trilogy and then i highlight the that paticular track and then go back to the browser on the left side of the screen and click on another instrument, then that instrument will load automaticly and my midi info that i recorded through trilogy will remain in place and instead play the newly loaded instrument.

midi tracks are midi tracks and audio tracks are audio tracks
there is no third track, what you are calling a third track is actualy just another audio track. it doesn't have a special name or anything its just the same old audio track and you bring it into existence by pressing cntrl + t and it appears in place.

the thing that makes live really special is its routing, and I don't know why eric would say that sonars routing is more flexible than lives, it's because of this routing that you guys are having confusion. Live is so flexible that it allows you to point just about any track into just about any other track or tracks. I repeat there are no 3rd type of track, it's just that Live 4s midi track can output the midi generated audio into another audio track if you like you can route it that way, it's like putting tape-it on the output of a midi track but in this case its another audio track.
live 4 can also output from one midi track into another midi track or several. thats routing 1 or more midi tracks out to several other midi tracks and several other audio tracks simotaneously all at once. it's really great some people even preffer it to the 'freeze functions of the big guys cause its so flexible and happens in realtime.

now audio tracks themselves can also feed other audio tracks, however many you want all at the sametime, not only that but you can run these tracks back into themselves too, for special efx and what not, also you can run all of these midi tracks and audio tracks out and into send tracks and out of send tracks into other send tracks or out of send tracks back into regular tracks, all of this is painless and easy, when you check out the demo you'll see what i mean. so i don't know what eric was talking about cause in live you can route anything into anything and into itself too, i totally agree though about his comment regarding how good a combination live makes with other apps, it has the flexibility of something modular like energy xt even though its not a modular host, and it's the easiest thing to do all of that tricky routing stuff in.

sorry for being so long winded

-bread

[Beardedone]

I have been having so much fun with Lve 4 that I am not hot to upgrade to Sonar 4... which I will do eventually being that it looks very cool and the demo proves it. Besides there are so many super Group Buys happening right now.

Cheers,
Atheist

[headquest]

Hey Stale Bread...

As you seem tohave got your head around Live 4's routing, could you answer a couple of questions pls?

I bought Live 2 but barely used it, as I became immersed in other software (Tracktion, Reason, most recently Audition). Now I'm considering upgrading to Live 4, with a view to using it much more prominently now that it has MIDI/VSTi functionality. As such it could replace Tracktion as my main "sequencer", and it particularly appeals to me that Live 4 will run as a ReWire client within Audition, which neither Sonar nor Tracktion will do...

On to my questions... I have been playing with the Live 4 demo for a few weeks, but to save me time poking about in the manual, can you tell me

1) How the send/returns work? I assumed I should drag/drop an effect onto the Return strip, but nothing happenned ...pls explain what I should have done!

2) How can I route MIDI channels to Reason via ReWire? I understand that Live will play audio feed from material sequenced within Reason, using an audio channel. But I want to do the sequencing IN Live, then use Reason's NN-XT to play back the sound... (in Tracktion this is easy enough to do... but in Live there seems no ReWire option in the MIDI channel output routing).

I hope you can provide something for me to go on, and thanks in advance for your help! (or anyone else who wants to chip in, of course)

[WillieJenkins]

hey stale bread,

While I've stated numerous times in this thread that for single-out vstis, Live's implementation is unmatched, using multiple outs, lives implementation is not as good as Sonars.. Unless I am missing something.

Say you wanted two audio outs driven by two midi tracks in Sonar, you'd just make 2 audio and 2 midi tracks, and set things up appropriately.

Inside Live, this becomes a mess, because the first track in the sequencer controls the audio output and midi input for the first audio out.

Then you need to make both another midi and audio track to handle the 2nd audio input and midi output.

Is this correct? Thats how I'd currently do it, and that just isn't as intuitive as Sonar. The reason I say that is because its inconsistent with how the first output was created.

If I am mistaken in how this works, please let me know.

Also, what vstis do you have? I can try and make an example .als of what I mean. I'm actually hoping you're right and I'm wrong, cause if multi-out vstis can be done easier in Live, that would make things alot easier for me.

I am one of the biggest live enthusiasts you'll ever find I think Its the app I've been waiting for since I started getting into electronic-based music, and it single-handedly revolutionized how I program drums For a real-time app, it does just about everything perfect for my workflow, but this is the one chink in its armor atm, for me at least

-Eric

[soulata]

I've tried Live4 and Sonar4 demos in the last few weeks and have to say I like Live4 more, although I rarely use loops.

Sonar isn't a bad program at all, but it makes me cry after usin T and Live4 for a while.

I tried S4 mainly because I heard it has awesome loop handling. Could somebody explain how that works?

I couldn't find it (will have to mess around for a longer time I guess)

K

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

I tried S4 mainly because I heard it has awesome loop handling. Could somebody explain how that works?

For audio loops, bring up the Loop Explorer -- it's the icon on the toolbar that looks like a folder with a magnifying glass on it and it's also under the View pulldown menu. Navigate to any folder of audio wav files, i.e., your loop files. Click on one of them to preview (and click on the Play or Auto-play buttons in Loop Explorer). When you find one that you like, drag and drop it onto Sonar's Track View onto an existing audio track or into a blank area -- Sonar will create an audio track automatically, if needed. If your loop is an "Acidized" one, you are ready to go. Just drag either side of the clip to cover as much time as you want. If the audio file was not already "Acidized", just double-click the newly added audio clip and the Loop Editor will appear. Click on the slice button and you are set. Use any of the other tools in the Loop Editor that you want.

For midi loops, right-click on a midi clip, select the Properties dialog. On the Groove Clips tab select Enable Looping. That's it. Now you can drag the right and left sides of the midi clip to stretch it across more time.

It's *really* simple and straightforward and a very strong capability of Sonar, IMHO. I use it *all* the time.

[tetraplan]

I tried S4 mainly because I heard it has awesome loop handling. Could somebody explain how that works?

Select clip -> ctrl-L -> double-click to adjust settings like length.
//edit: forgot important part
Grab end of clip with mouse (or whatever pointing-device you use) and drag.
That's it.
In Sonar 3, timestretch is incredibly grainy (which has its use!), I suppose it's cleaner in 4.

Groet, Erik

[soulata]

Thank you. Will try that.

k

[WillieJenkins]

http://mpex.prosoniq.com/examples.html

this is the time/pitch stretch algo in sonar4

[StrangeCat]

I read a ton of posts here lot's of great posts!
I just have one question is it totally worth it to upgrade from Sonar Producer 3 to 4? I just Live 4.1
and Sonar Producer 3 I alwasy mix and master with Sonar though. Just really wondering about this, if one really needs to upgrade? yea probably dumb question but I need to know^_*
Thanks

[WillieJenkins]

StrangeCat,

To me its a no-brainer, it focuses mostly on workflow enhancements, and I know that deters some people, but

track folders, track layering, nudge, freeze, mute tool, navigator view, all of these things I've been using immediately, and I can't imagine not having them now! The hardcore freeze upgrade is icing on the cake!

Also, Mackie Control support is improved, in case you have one of those as well.

If you'd like any specific questions answered, shoot

[StrangeCat]

That freeze stuff I have no idea about LOL...
ok I love the layout of Live, easy to do electronic music in that program or any pattern based music. I do sometimes jazz in Sonar but bassically Sonar is just a production tool, all my Composition/arranging is done in Sibelius so I have a score, everything else is just texturing(beats whatever) so Sonar 4 has so many new features that it's worth the upgrade? I thought Sonar 2 to producer 3 was worth it. I guess I better take a closer look at Sonar 4. These dang Software Companies come out with upgrades all the time it seems It's like what people have been saying here is true though, the look is looking like Abelton Live 4 a lot...still not that awesome session view to track view in live. Hmmmm.... Can some tell me how the audio engine has been enhanced, or do you feel it sonically sounds better on mix down or is it the bussing enhanced more?

[JeffSanders]

To me, it sounds warmer. But that's probably my imagination. The audio engine enhancements are mainly noticeable in the way plugins are handled, and lessened CPU hit.
I love Sonar 4. Everything about it is miles beyond Sonar 3. It gived me a woodrow.