KVR Audio

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Sun May 26, 2019 11:22 pm

Checking to see if I'm doing something wrong or to confirm Live's bizarre way of outputting CC data from a "drawn" envelope in a MIDI clip.

If I have a simple MIDI clip, for example, sending MIDI notes to an external synth, and I draw an envelope using breakpoints (like as outlined in section 20.4 of the Live manual - https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/clip-envelopes/), then the envelope fails to work. No CC data is sent via MIDI. However, if I turn on the Pencil Tool and hand-draw the envelope, then the envelope works as it should, and CC MIDI data is sent to the synth.

I tested this behavior in Live 10 and even Live 9.7; same behavior. Weird. I would expect the envelope to interpret the slope of the envelope via breakpoints and output the correct and corresponding CC value, but apparently not the case since version 9.7. I only seem to get this behavior (more like a limitation) on MIDI Control (CC) envelopes. Envelopes work as they should for other internal devices such as VST automation or Live's clip/mixer controls.

So in other words, it seems that all MIDI Control envelopes must be hand-drawn in order to work. What's up with this?

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Sun May 26, 2019 11:26 pm

If anyone can test this out, then please do so and reply back. Unless I'm doing something wrong, then I would like to forward this info as a Feature Request to Ableton.

Reefius · Post by **Reefius** » Mon May 27, 2019 6:43 pm

Try increasing your audio buffer size. I've been having the same issue with external synths and discovered that it starts working properly if I set my buffer size to at least 512 samples.

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Mon May 27, 2019 10:35 pm

Reefius wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 6:43 pm Try increasing your audio buffer size. I've been having the same issue with external synths and discovered that it starts working properly if I set my buffer size to at least 512 samples.

I'm at 128 now under recommendation of Access for use of the Virus Ti2, but I will definitely test 512 to see if things improve. To me, if it's buffer related, then that's a bunch of crap!

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Wed May 29, 2019 5:15 am

Reefius wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 6:43 pm Try increasing your audio buffer size. I've been having the same issue with external synths and discovered that it starts working properly if I set my buffer size to at least 512 samples.

So you hit the nail on the head! Great job and THANKS!

I get pretty much flawless CC output and response from external gear with my Focusrite Saffire buffer set to 512! At 128, my normal buffer size for tracking and production, the CC envelopes do not work. At 256, the CC envelopes are "steppy." But 512...they work! Nice and smooth. However, latency is 25ms. That sucks.

Do you think this is a bug?

tooneba · Post by **tooneba** » Wed May 29, 2019 7:58 am

I don't believe its intended behavior....

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Wed May 29, 2019 11:35 am

tooneba wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 7:58 am I don't believe its intended behavior....

I agree, and I have submitted a help ticket to Ableton. IMO, my buffer size of "128" at 44.1kHz is certainly modest and should not limit any interpretation and output of MIDI data. I could maybe understand "32" or "64," but certainly not "128" or even "256."

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:03 pm

UPDATE: What seems to be strange about all this is that the bug as described above seems to only occur with clip envelopes with built-in drop-down menu choices for CC Midi Controls. In other words, if I set up a CC_Map8 device (M4L device intended for convenient setup/mapping of external, hardware CC's), and then map the CC_Map8 device to a macro knob and control it with an envelope in Arrangement View, or just control the CC_Map8 device "knob" itself via an envelope in Arrangement View, then it all works properly.

carrieres · Post by **carrieres** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:41 am

if you right click on a time selection and choose Simplify Envelope, does it work better ?

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:39 am

carrieres wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:41 am if you right click on a time selection and choose Simplify Envelope, does it work better ?

Nope! It does not work any better. I had to look up how to use "Simplify Envelope," as I have never heard of it until now. Neat feature, but unfortunately it does not help.

Still haven't heard back from Ableton yet regarding this issue.

carrieres · Post by **carrieres** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:53 am

yes, it's a new feature from 10.1
it's sad that Ableton did not come back to you

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:12 pm

carrieres wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:53 am yes, it's a new feature from 10.1
it's sad that Ableton did not come back to you

Ah-ha! That's explains it then! Thanks for the reply and help! Ableton's support is very good, so I trust that they will eventually.

pottering · Post by **pottering** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:23 pm

My guess (emphasis on "guess") would be that the higher number of MIDI CC messages from a straight line (compared with a stepped "line") are overwhelming the MIDI port's bandwidth (31.25 kbps with din).

2:43AM · Post by **2:43AM** » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:13 pm

UPDATE: No update. Still haven't heard back from Ableton. This is a little strange. I sent a reminder "reply" to support request today.

tooneba · Post by **tooneba** » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:09 am

Still no response????????

Ableton Live Envelopes vs. MIDI CC Output