Clip based approach

[ChamomileShark]

My original question, which I expressed badly, was what does this clip based approach give you that the normal linear approach doesn't. As in composition. Does it take you to different places than including loops within a linear grid? I see all these people using a different kind of tool (Ableton in particular) and I wonder if I'm missing out. I've got Bitwig and I've tried clips within that and all I am producing is layered loops.

So I still don't get it.I'm not sure that I've really seen an answer for that.

I get that it is useful in a live situation and for perhaps arranging songs but as neither of those are my thing I'm still left wondering.

[PeterP_swe]

I see Ableton Live (Session View) as an advanced looper pedal with built in drum machine and synths.

You can build up a song organically by jamming with yourself. You can start experimenting with a riff, add some layers, try some variations. Before you know it it's been two hours and you've come up with a new song demo. All without ever stopping the song.

That is, for me, the big difference between a non-linear / clip based DAW and the traditional tape emulation style DAW.

[carrieres]

I see Ableton Live (Session View) as an advanced looper pedal with built in drum machine and synths.

You can build up a song organically by jamming with yourself. You can start experimenting with a riff, add some layers, try some variations. Before you know it it's been two hours and you've come up with a new song demo. All without ever stopping the song.

That is, for me, the big difference between a non-linear / clip based DAW and the traditional tape emulation style DAW.

exactly that !
I will add that a launchpad allow you to do that without touching the mouse (like a looper pedal)
ex :
with a template song ready :
arm a melody track record a clip
arm a bass track record your bass riff
arm again the melody track, record a variation of the melody
arm the chord track record your chord progression or record one chord by clip and jam your progression ...
when you have enough clip, you can move your clip to create scene (verse, chorus, drop ...) or directly record your jam into the arrangement view

[ChamomileShark]

I see Ableton Live (Session View) as an advanced looper pedal with built in drum machine and synths.

You can build up a song organically by jamming with yourself. You can start experimenting with a riff, add some layers, try some variations. Before you know it it's been two hours and you've come up with a new song demo. All without ever stopping the song.

That is, for me, the big difference between a non-linear / clip based DAW and the traditional tape emulation style DAW.

ok, thanks for that, that's clear.

It's probably not an approach that would work for me particularly, but I'll give it a go.

[dellboy]

Think Ed Sheeran building up a looping song.

In Live session view (and Bitwig) on track 1 have drums - track 2 bass - track 3 piano - track 4 audio.

With your mouse, highlight the round button underneath "drums" you have just created.

Hit enter on your PC keyboard and drum a beat for a few bars - hit space to stop. Press enter to hear what you have just played and adjust the end marker to get a perfect loop.

Move over to bass and play for as many bars as you like while listening to the drum beat. Move over to piano and repeat - and add audio of guitar or vocals. The tracks can be of mixed bar lengths but they will sync perfectly.

You are Ed Sheeran.

edit: oops, another poster has already answered this.

[ChamomileShark]

I'm not sure I've ever heard anything by Ed Sheeran but I get the idea.

[Psuper]

Based on what Dellboy just said, the Independent clip looping in Cubase is the best of both worlds. I'm not saying it's better at stuff Live or Bitwig focus on, but for this example I find it extremely intuitive even though its not the way I prefer to work. To use Dellboys example:
--------------------
In the Cubase sequencer on track 1 have drums - track 2 bass - track 3 piano - track 4 audio.

Hit record on Track 1 and drum a beat for a few bars - hit space to stop. Press enter to hear what you have just played and adjust the Independent clip loop to get a perfect loop.

Move over to bass and play for as many bars as you like while listening to the drum beat, adjust the independent clip loop wherever you like it. Move over to piano and repeat - and add audio of guitar or vocals. The tracks can be of mixed bar lengths but they will sync perfectly.
--------------------

The only uncertainty I have is how Live or Bitwig handles the syncing part, and I suspect its the same as the way Cubase handles it. If you record 8 bars of drums, then 6 bars of bass, the drums loop at bar 8, but the the bass loops at 6 unless you purposely add 2 more bars of empty loop at the end.

Oh and that Arranger, its brilliant. I had to start tinkering with it after hearing about it, and its a workflow game-changer for certain styles I play.

[dellboy]

My original question, which I expressed badly, was what does this clip based approach give you that the normal linear approach doesn't. As in composition. Does it take you to different places than including loops within a linear grid? I see all these people using a different kind of tool (Ableton in particular) and I wonder if I'm missing out. I've got Bitwig and I've tried clips within that and all I am producing is layered loops.

So I still don't get it.I'm not sure that I've really seen an answer for that.

I get that it is useful in a live situation and for perhaps arranging songs but as neither of those are my thing I'm still left wondering.

The main advantage of composing in a loop fashion is that there is no need to look at a screen or use a mouse. In Live or Bitwig, a whole pattern based composition can be made using just the PC keyboard,or push, or some controller.

You are composing with your ears instead of using your eyes.

The disadvantage is that pattern based music can run the risk of sounding repetitive.

But Ed Sheeran has managed to become a top recording star using just a cheap Martin guitar and loop pedals - and he's earned a few dollars working that way, so who are we to say its wrong.

[antic604]

My original question, which I expressed badly, was what does this clip based approach give you that the normal linear approach doesn't. As in composition. Does it take you to different places than including loops within a linear grid? I see all these people using a different kind of tool (Ableton in particular) and I wonder if I'm missing out. I've got Bitwig and I've tried clips within that and all I am producing is layered loops.

So I still don't get it.I'm not sure that I've really seen an answer for that.

I get that it is useful in a live situation and for perhaps arranging songs but as neither of those are my thing I'm still left wondering.

I think for "real" musicians that can just record what they have in their head clip-based approach has little to offer, although it can be an interesting change of workflow.

Where it really shines is for those of us (me included) who are able to make small interesting pieces - beat, bass, melodic riff, chord progression - but have no immediate idea of how to put all of this together. Clip-based approach lets you generate dozens of such ideas without committing to certain structure or order; and then experiment - how this beat works with this bassline, or that riff, or that chord, etc. You can mix & match various elements not worrying things will get out of sync. Once you figure out the order you can drag clips and whole scenes - or record performance if you have a Push or similar controller - to the traditional linear timeline and finetune your track there.

Ableton's own videos show pretty well the process of 1st collecting a bunch of ideas & trying them out:



And them moving them to the timeline:

[dellboy]

The only uncertainty I have is how Live or Bitwig handles the syncing part, and I suspect its the same as the way Cubase handles it. If you record 8 bars of drums, then 6 bars of bass, the drums loop at bar 8, but the the bass loops at 6 unless you purposely add 2 more bars of empty loop at the end.

Oh and that Arranger, its brilliant. I had to start tinkering with it after hearing about it, and its a workflow game-changer for certain styles I play.

I just tried 3 midi and 2 audio tracks looping independently - and it worked ok and synced.

I am now asking myself why I would want to do it that way, as unlike Live, it requires using the mouse and keyboard, which sort of takes away the quickness and fun aspect.

Its just as quick in Cubase to drag out parts and use the arranger.

[pdxindy]

The only uncertainty I have is how Live or Bitwig handles the syncing part, and I suspect its the same as the way Cubase handles it. If you record 8 bars of drums, then 6 bars of bass, the drums loop at bar 8, but the the bass loops at 6 unless you purposely add 2 more bars of empty loop at the end.

In Bitwig and Live the bass will loop where you set it. If you recorded a 6 bar bass but want it to loop at bar 8 after 2 bars of silence, select the clip and set loop length to 8.

You could also use the follow actions and have the 6 bar loop play and then repeat the first 2 bars of the 6 bars, then reset to the start.

You can also use follow actions and have the 6 bar loop with 2 bars of silence and then after say 3 iterations of 8 bars (24 total) it will jump to the next clip. So you can make a clip repeat a fixed number of times then instruct it what to do next.

It's very flexible and automations can be decoupled from the loop length. So for example, while the 8 bar clip is looping 4 times, you could automate the filter cutoff to ramp up over those 32 bars... and so on...

[Psuper]

Ahh ok I see, so not much different from how Cubase handles the loops in terms of having to set it how you want it (especially with arranger holy crap I'm loving it). At least from my standpoint since I'm new to Cubase specifically and have only begun looking at how it handles this sort of stuff.

I'd eventually come to grips with any software as long as it covered the bases I require, but when I was looking at DAW options over years, Cubase just screamed "Perfect Fit!" for my tastes and it hasn't disappointed.

As for control, its whatever you're most comfortable that works best. I used to only want to work in hardware (sequences, sound design, routing) and only use the PC for recording hardware and creating synth libraries, then using both hardware and software, then only software with only recording live instruments, etc -- control is always slightly different, but I get used to it quickly and it doesn't interfere with my creative side vs technical side. I'd always prefer mouse/keyboard with a controller over anything else.

[reggie1979]

I'm not sure I've ever heard anything by Ed Sheeran but I get the idea.

You're not missing anything Just another WILDLY popular musician that isn't anything to get excited about.

[reggie1979]

The thing I don't like about loop based stuff is that it seems like extra steps to get the lengths the way you want. IIRC, live is better about this than Bitwig but for me it's just easier to do it linear and then loop the part you need.

[Psuper]

The thing I don't like about loop based stuff is that it seems like extra steps to get the lengths the way you want. IIRC, live is better about this than Bitwig but for me it's just easier to do it linear and then loop the part you need.

I agree, and the way Cubase does it I'm absolutely loving it. But then you bring in some of the other tools like groovagent, loopmash which I've knocked around the last few days... its shocking what you can do with very little effort. And knowing I've barely seen what is available/possible, I'm a giddy kid again.