Clip based approach

[deastman]

The main advantage of composing in a loop fashion is that there is no need to look at a screen or use a mouse. In Live or Bitwig, a whole pattern based composition can be made using just the PC keyboard,or push, or some controller.

You are composing with your ears instead of using your eyes.

Back in the old days, we used to record on something called a “tape recorder”.

[reggie1979]

I'm sorry, but I've tried all that "no mouse" malarkey and I can't get that workflow. It was close-ish with live and push but it left a lot to be desired.

Then again, I do a ton of audio recording so, maybe for others it's easier

[cantaloupe]

There are so many strange ideas about linear DAWs.. if you find yourself composing from A to B using your eyes more than your ears thats more about the limits of your personal workflow than the limits of the interface imo. I find a linear DAW great to make music in a nonlinear intuitive way, often using loops and polyrhythmic repetition that is more satisfying than recording into clips and does not require too much visualisation. It is pretty much a tape recorder, you can fill it with whatever you want in whatever way and the operation required can be minimal with some planning. When i record, i always listen first, the visual arrangement on screen are given little focus.

My main issue with Ableton and the likes is that it makes people do things without thought and intention too easily. It is too easy to be detached from any bigger structure or idea and why you do what you do - quickly creating lots of variations of repetitive sounds detached from any context or time or thought. It shapes a lot of peoples ideas about composition for the negative. I genuinely believe that amateurs and hobbyists (myself included) make more interesting music using Garageband or something similar rather than Ableton. Even if it creates a more "raw" sound as a result (or maybe precisely because of that). Linear DAWs have their own conceptual baggage but i find it is much more flexible of numerous different workflows than Ableton.

I'm not saying that you make bad music by default if you use Ableton, lots of cool stuff are made using that program - just commenting on some general trends i've observed the last years and some trap that are very easy to fall into. Going from Ableton to a linear DAW was one of the most rewarding, educational and productive musical choices i've done.

[jancivil]

"You are composing with your ears instead of using your eyes."

That literally made me laugh out loud. You have no idea, that's just totally non-sequitur.

[deastman]

I find a linear DAW great to make music in a nonlinear intuitive way,

Rather ironically, we oldsters used to refer to a DAW-style digital timeline as a “nonlinear editor”.

[JoeCat]

I'm torn, since I use Live and by default tend towards starting in Session view, so that drives the workflow away from structure initially, but more towards experimentation.

For my band's music I work only in Arrangement view (and in fact a lot of recording is already done before I'm working on parts so I've got stems for the entire track and the structure is 95% complete).

However for the type of work I produce solo I'm finding what I love about Session view is the ease at experimenting with different parts against each other. And the ability to quickly duplicate / move Scenes (for those not working in Live, basically the "row" of clips / track) enables you to easily experiment with the structure immediately, and I've come up with a lot of ideas this way that I don't think I would have in the more traditional Arrangement view.

The largest problem though occurs with the bar-structure - you can of course set clips to different loop lenghts, set follow actions for clips, etc., in Session view, but it's not as obvious what's going on - for example, if one clip loops every bar and another evolves over 4 bars, etc. Ideas line up on neat boundaries, transitions suffer a bit...

I'm starting to lay out ideas in session, then once I'm close to complete with the main musical ideas and structure I record to arrangement. From there, I often start working on transitions, changing up some of the repetitive parts, working on automation and trends over the long term (like fading a section in or filtering, putting effects at the end of a section, etc.), and experiment with moving some of the boundaries.

So if Session view wasn't available and I was forced to work in Arrangement, I'd work differently, but I'm not sure my music would be better or worse for it. Best not to overthink (too late!)

[tooneba]

Seesion view is clip launcher/record slot. So if I understand his "using ear" argument as a recording phase in the whole composing process, indeed you literally use your ear and muscle. Then you move into remaining process where you use your eyes to finish song.

[JoeCat]

Seesion view is clip launcher/record slot. So if I understand his "using ear" argument as a recording phase in the whole composing process, indeed you literally use your ear and muscle. Then you move into remaining process where you use your eyes to finish song.

It's maybe a bit more convoluted than that though:

With a track arranged (in Arrangement view of course) - even without viewing the arrangement, the current structure is predetermined.

In Session view, the order of the scenes may have been arranged to your liking, but unless you note the length of each scene, you MAY need to be keeping track timing so you know when to move to the next scene. An intro may have an 1 bar repeating clip and another that evolves over 8 bars. Unless you note that somewhere in the scene, you need to recall it. If you're not even at that level and are just launching clips, you have even more freedom to create or screw up what you intended, and maybe more reliance on notes on clips ("filtered 8-bar pad", "2-bar drum loop w/o kick" etc.) - a least until you've memorized everything.

Ironically then, you might use your eyes more in Session view, especially if you've put the track away for a bit and already had some idea how you wanted to proceed. Whereas in arrangement, you can listen to the composition as intended (so far) just by hitting the play head and sitting back, since no interaction is necessary.

But yeah - when you're creating - you can use you ear in session view and move around as you see fit, when you see fit. And since you can record into Arrangement, that's sort of the creative way you can compose - launching clips and scenes (without looking, if you have a controller for it or know all your shortcuts!), and improvise the structure, recording it into arrangement. Your 8-bar pad may sound better with another drum pattern coming in halfway through, etc...

So it kinda depends on how you want to proceed. If you're like me, trying to work both ways, it's a headache born of having too many choices - sorta like GAS.

[pdxindy]

if you find yourself composing from A to B using your eyes more than your ears thats more about the limits of your personal workflow than the limits of the interface imo.

My main issue with Ableton and the likes is that it makes people do things without thought and intention too easily.

So if it is a linear DAW it's your own fault

But if it's a Clip Launcher, then the DAW is at fault

Sorry, but Ableton or Bitwig doesn't make me do things without thought... Sometimes I don't even use the Clip Launcher in Bitwig. There are times when I know exactly what I want to do and I do it straight in the linear timeline.

[elxsound]

if you find yourself composing from A to B using your eyes more than your ears thats more about the limits of your personal workflow than the limits of the interface imo.

My main issue with Ableton and the likes is that it makes people do things without thought and intention too easily.

So if it is a linear DAW it's your own fault

But if it's a Clip Launcher, then the DAW is at fault

Sorry, but Ableton or Bitwig doesn't make me do things without thought... Sometimes I don't even use the Clip Launcher in Bitwig. There are times when I know exactly what I want to do and I do it straight in the linear timeline.

What are you talking about. Bitwig made you write that.

[elxsound]

With a clip based approach, the only thing that suffers (short term problem) is indeed transitions. There's plenty of articles about this over the years among various individuals that have complained about things like music submission to labels not having transitions, having lead-ins to different sections (except for the over used (in EDM) white noise risers and repeating/increasing in frequency of claps/kicks, etc...).

I don't blame the recording program... I do blame the user for a lack of knowledge here. It just doesn't become immediately obvious to someone who works primarily in session view because they see the scenes (sets of clips) as a finished piece before moving on to the next set of clips (never noticing the need to tie-in the sections).

There is no, this is way is better than that way. Basically whatever helps you work better, faster or more creative is just simply the right way for you. None of the ears vs. eyes BS. You use it all at some point and if not, maybe you should.

[reggie1979]

You can blame the user all you want, but some of us just don't get the clip/loop paradigm. You saying we just don't understand? I'm pretty sharp, I think I understand.

[elxsound]

You can blame the user all you want, but some of us just don't get the clip/loop paradigm. You saying we just don't understand? I'm pretty sharp, I think I understand.

So if you don’t get the clip/loop paradigm, and my comment was about users who actually use clip/loop based production, do you still think I was talking about you?

[reggie1979]

Not exactly, but do YOU understand where I'm coming from?

[pdxindy]

You can blame the user all you want, but some of us just don't get the clip/loop paradigm. You saying we just don't understand? I'm pretty sharp, I think I understand.

Saying you don't get the clip/loop paradigm is the same as saying you don't understand it.

Oh, and I see no problem at all. Use whatever software you want in whatever way you want.