Clip based approach

[pdxindy]

With a clip based approach, the only thing that suffers (short term problem) is indeed transitions. There's plenty of articles about this over the years among various individuals that have complained about things like music submission to labels not having transitions, having lead-ins to different sections (except for the over used (in EDM) white noise risers and repeating/increasing in frequency of claps/kicks, etc...).

I like making long compositions that flow from one mood/form to another. Basically like a few different 'songs' and how to transition between them in what I consider an organic way is a very enjoyable creative challenge.

It's the same 'problem' with drum machines and patterns and sequencers... how to transition between these structures... no machine is as good at doing that as a human being. It is up to people to use the tools to fulfill their creative vision.

I would not want to use a DAW that was only clip based. If I had to pick one or the other, it would be the linear timeline. The clip based workflow is a flexible and useful laboratory and I'm happy to have it.

[cantaloupe]

if you find yourself composing from A to B using your eyes more than your ears thats more about the limits of your personal workflow than the limits of the interface imo.

My main issue with Ableton and the likes is that it makes people do things without thought and intention too easily.

So if it is a linear DAW it's your own fault

But if it's a Clip Launcher, then the DAW is at fault

Sorry, but Ableton or Bitwig doesn't make me do things without thought...

Please, see: "Linear DAWs have their own conceptual baggage but i find it is much more flexible of numerous different workflows than Ableton. "

Also note the usage of the phrase "too easily"

Also note "general trends i've observed / traps that are easy to fall into" + "I'm not saying you make bad music by default if you use Ableton (/Bitwig)".. Also note that by using the phrase general trend, im saying that it is irrelevant if you make things with or without thought since it is not about you as a specific case.

And if at times you use the linear timeline, then those cases are obviously not part of this discussion.

Maybe there is a point about the enforced workflows of a linear DAW (there is no fundamentally "neutral" software design) but i have not observed it to the same degree.

[PeterP_swe]

I think for "real" musicians that can just record what they have in their head clip-based approach has little to offer, although it can be an interesting change of workflow.

I don't feel that way at all. I think musicians who have experienced jamming with other musicians and now find themselves in a one-man-band situation is the ideal target for something like Session View.

Just plug in a guitar, microphone, midi keyboard and let loose.

It's extra good with a controller like Push or Komplete Kontrol that lets you control everything without a mouse and qwerty keyboard.

Well, it was something of a revelation for me anyway, discovering this way of working after having used traditional DAWs since the last millenium. I only use it for making song demos though.

[pdxindy]

Also note that by using the phrase general trend, im saying that it is irrelevant if you make things with or without thought since it is not about you as a specific case.

Also note that just because you say something doesn't make it so. Stop trying to talk for other people.

[cantaloupe]

Also note that just because you say something doesn't make it so. Stop trying to talk for other people.

Me: What i am describing in the general may not be the case for you as an individual, so by extension i am not talking for or about you
You: Stop trying to talk for other people !

How about you stop playing some kind of singled out victim based on poor reading comprehension lol

Anyway, back to topic

[antic604]

I think for "real" musicians that can just record what they have in their head clip-based approach has little to offer, although it can be an interesting change of workflow.

I don't feel that way at all. I think musicians who have experienced jamming with other musicians and now find themselves in a one-man-band situation is the ideal target for something like Session View.

Just plug in a guitar, microphone, midi keyboard and let loose.

It's extra good with a controller like Push or Komplete Kontrol that lets you control everything without a mouse and qwerty keyboard.

Well, it was something of a revelation for me anyway, discovering this way of working after having used traditional DAWs since the last millenium. I only use it for making song demos though.

That's exactly what I meant with the bolded part

[antic604]

I find a linear DAW great to make music in a nonlinear intuitive way, often using loops and polyrhythmic repetition that is more satisfying than recording into clips and does not require too much visualisation. It is pretty much a tape recorder, you can fill it with whatever you want in whatever way and the operation required can be minimal with some planning. When i record, i always listen first, the visual arrangement on screen are given little focus.

My main issue with Ableton and the likes is that it makes people do things without thought and intention too easily. It is too easy to be detached from any bigger structure or idea and why you do what you do - quickly creating lots of variations of repetitive sounds detached from any context or time or thought. It shapes a lot of peoples ideas about composition for the negative. I genuinely believe that amateurs and hobbyists (myself included) make more interesting music using Garageband or something similar rather than Ableton. Even if it creates a more "raw" sound as a result (or maybe precisely because of that). Linear DAWs have their own conceptual baggage but i find it is much more flexible of numerous different workflows than Ableton.

This statement is pretty contradictory, as - objectively and technically - session / clip launcher view is easier to "make music in a nonlinear intuitive way, often using loops and polyrhythmic repetition" where "you can fill it with whatever you want in whatever way" because the whole burden of keeping your project in order (so that things are in sync, are not getting overwritten, etc.) is taken care of "automatically"...

So either your opinion results from how you're used to make music (which is totally fine!) or lack of full understanding about how session / clip launcher works, for example the fact that clips can have different lengths, polyrhythms, that using next-actions you can literally build a linear, self-playing arrangement like in the linear sequencer.

But in the end everyone should use what works for them.

[cantaloupe]

This statement is pretty contradictory, as - objectively and technically - session / clip launcher view is easier to "make music in a nonlinear intuitive way, often using loops and polyrhythmic repetition" where "you can fill it with whatever you want in whatever way" because the whole burden of keeping your project in order (so that things are in sync, are not getting overwritten, etc.) is taken care of "automatically"...

So either your opinion results from how you're used to make music (which is totally fine!) or lack of full understanding about how session / clip launcher works, for example the fact that clips can have different lengths, polyrhythms, that using next-actions you can literally build a linear, self-playing arrangement like in the linear sequencer.

But in the end everyone should use what works for them.

Yes, i should have been more clear. I meant that a linear DAW can be very decent at making the type of music that some people claim you need a clip launcher for, although not precisely as good or as easy since that particular workflow is Abletons niche and everything is designed around that concept. You do need to think about structure and order a bit more in a linear DAW which perhaps is why i find it more rewarding to do.

I guess my main point is that a linear DAW doesn't necessarily lead you down the path of linear composition as strongly as Ableton leads you down grid-like composition though this is obviously anecdotal.

I used Ableton exclusively for many years however, mostly in session view, any my workflow is still very much based on that style, i just adapted that workflow to a linear DAW and found that the benefits outweigh the compromise.

[PeterP_swe]

That's exactly what I meant with the bolded part

Oops, you're right, sorry.

[tooneba]

If audience are expecting or you want to cater music in traditional form I think linear workflow is the most efficient way to achieve the result. I feel the other ways are like reinventing the wheel. That said, clip launcher/record slot have their own place where they shine as you may see people use it for live looper, DJ set and etc.

[dellboy]

I don't feel that way at all. I think musicians who have experienced jamming with other musicians and now find themselves in a one-man-band situation is the ideal target for something like Session View.

Just plug in a guitar, microphone, midi keyboard and let loose.

It's extra good with a controller like Push or Komplete Kontrol that lets you control everything without a mouse and qwerty keyboard.

Well, it was something of a revelation for me anyway, discovering this way of working after having used traditional DAWs since the last millenium. I only use it for making song demos though.

I only have Live Lite, and for a long time I could not make any sense of it. Then one day I found out how to jam with it, and actually made a song. I would prefer to be jamming with other musicians, but its a great alternative for getting that live jamming feeling to a song.

I only use it for sketching, and then I export the stems to a linear DAW.

[antic604]

I guess my main point is that a linear DAW doesn't necessarily lead you down the path of linear composition as strongly as Ableton leads you down grid-like composition though this is obviously anecdotal.

100% agree

And it's actually good to see linear DAW developers trying to help with non-linear workflows, e.g. arranger track in Cubase or S1.

[antic604]

I only have Live Lite, and for a long time I could not make any sense of it. Then one day I found out how to jam with it, and actually made a song. I would prefer to be jamming with other musicians, but its a great alternative for getting that live jamming feeling to a song.

I only use it for sketching, and then I export the stems to a linear DAW.

I'm not expecting you to shell out for Push 1/2 if you only have Lite, but Live's session view really starts making sense with such a controller. It's surprisingly intuitive and brings a lot of ...live into what can otherwise be a pretty "blocky", rigid experience when using just a keyboard & a mouse.

This took me around 0.5h to do from scratch - not touching the computer! - after taking Push2 out of the box for the 1st time:

Code: Select all

https://youtu.be/xPYV5EEcx4Q

[carrieres]

I would not want to use a DAW that was only clip based. If I had to pick one or the other, it would be the linear timeline. The clip based workflow is a flexible and useful laboratory and I'm happy to have it.

AFAIK, a DAW that is only clip based does not exist.
The advantage of clips is the possibility to jam to an audience or to jam to find arrangement that you would not think/try/test (by laziness) in a linear DAW.
But in Ableton you can't export your session view as a song even if your session view is organised like an arrangement (by scenes), so you will have to record your jam or copy/paste your clip to the arrangement view and export your song.
So, from a composer point of view, it cannot be clip vs linear DAW, but starting with clip and finishing your song linearly.

[EnGee]

I like making long compositions that flow from one mood/form to another. Basically like a few different 'songs' and how to transition between them in what I consider an organic way is a very enjoyable creative challenge.

It's the same 'problem' with drum machines and patterns and sequencers... how to transition between these structures... no machine is as good at doing that as a human being. It is up to people to use the tools to fulfill their creative vision.

I would not want to use a DAW that was only clip based. If I had to pick one or the other, it would be the linear timeline. The clip based workflow is a flexible and useful laboratory and I'm happy to have it.

Yes! You have nailed it