Native Instruments Massive X Synth - Sequel to Massive (Out Now!)

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Massive Massive X$199.00Buy X-Squared For Massive X

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I absolutely LOVE the accelerated knobs approach -- first discovered it on my new Arturia Microfreak (which I'm spending most of my time with these days), and it really helps, either when you're using encoders on a synth, or a mouse in a PC-based GUI.

This should really be a standard now in synthesis knob control, hard or soft. It really helps. I know, it's a tiny thing to do ctrl-click or whatever to get a different rate, but the accelerated approach really helps me just concentrate on what I'm doing without having to turn into an octopus (or at least, a squid)!

Massive X is one of the first soft synths in a very long time (along with Pigments) that has me thinking at night about what I could do with it, and eager to get up in the morning to try something with it.

Pigments and MX are really two very different synths, despite both being wavetable-based. I find Pigments great for really interesting delicate sounds, especially interesting plucked or blown sounds, many of which sound quite acoustic instrument in quality. MX is better for out-there, new instrument I don't know what I can call it but really sounds amazing sounds.

It's a waste of both to worry about whether they do Moog bass (of course) or subtractive analogue emulation (sure). There's so much more to explore.

What MX and Pigments both have is this really modular approach to instrument design; you'd only get this kind of flexibility on a hardware synth in something like the Moog One, or Waldorf Quantum at this point -- nothing else in hardware comes anywhere close.

Combine that with the ability to mix filters, endless modulation, fx, multiple styles of modulatable oscillators, and the promise of "endless and infinite sound" that the MI industry's been preaching since the first Moog Modular is really here, in extensive ways.

I was there when Massive OG first came out, and loved it long before the squee-wub-wub crowd turned it into their own. I remember being, "hey folks, look over here! You're really missing it!" at that point.

This is ten times so. I'll just leave it at that. The rest of you will find that out soon enough.

And yes, there's miles to go both in development and sound design. And, if I'm not mistaken, if the GPU-accelerated UI is making use of QT and/or Direct3D and other 3D graphics technologies, well, with the right time and talent, you could really blow the doors off graphic interface design with that technology, if you knew what you were doing, and could trust your customer base to have sufficient hardware in place. I don't want to overimagine on this side, but a GPU-based interface will definitely reduce the need for cycles from the CPU, and allow for possibilities not seen before. The current GUI, elegant as it actually is, is really a 1.0 design; I expect to see a lot more on this front over time, though the developers will have to proceed carefully, as they already obviously have.

Released half-baked? No-one who says that knows software development, at all; this already demonstrates the YEARS of effort that have gone into it. Rough edges and further work to do? Sure, but even to get it to a smooth post-launch quality, that's about 10% of the overall work that's gone into this left.

Finally, the whole aliasing thing: COMPLETE distraction, has nothing to do with anything. You can't even hear a -70db noise floor, much less particles of harmonics at -132db, it's truly crazy to suggest otherwise. As to whether that will affect the quality of modulation (oooo, let's start a "it's stepping!" argument, why not? There's still a hoof left of that dead horse to flog, maybe, randomly?), well..... in highly technical terms: no.

Some of the most interesting early Klangmusik was made with Hewlett Packard sine wave oscillators (the first oscillators ever made, analogue) and believe me, those were not pure sines. A pure sine is the simplest, least complicated thing to do on a digital software system, so if there's anything other than that in MX, it's evidence of careful, musical intention, not engineering blindness, so forget that whole argument.

On with the show. Make some presets with what you have, and share, to demonstrate your OCD prowess online, that's the best way. :)

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JoeCat wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:52 pm Some predictions for the Massive XI release in 2030:

"Only 3 filters? What modern synth doesn't have 8?"
"I'm surprised I still have to use my hand to turn a knob. Guess NI isn't into eye-tracking like everyone else."
"I love the UI."
"I hate the UI."
"Massive X had an iconic sound. This is too generic."
"It's using 50% CPU on a string pad, but I only have a 30-core I20 running at 30Ghz, so maybe time to upgrade?"
"It runs great on my MacBook Pro, though it's a little hard to use since Apple removed the keyboard and display.
"I'm on the fence, but I think I'm going to wait until Zebra 3."
ROFL Made my day! Good one!

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BlitBit wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:05 pm
wagtunes wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:54 pm Again, you're missing the point. Yes, they have to EQ the hell out of all instruments, guitars, drums, horns, you name it. Nothing gets put into a track of music straight out of the box. We all understand that.

My point is, the appeal of Massive X is it's sound. The patches are all bigger than life. Sound as good as anything I have.

But NONE of them are usable as is. They all have to be tweaked. Some a ton. Suddenly, all that "big sound" is gone so that you can fit it in the mix.

If that's the case, I don't need Massive X's big sound just to make it small, just to fit it into a mix when I already have HUNDREDS OF SYNTHS THAT CAN DO THAT.

I'm no longer impressed, nor do I care about synths that sound great out of the box because I know that if I want to use them for a song, they won't sound ANYTHING like that when the track is done. That's the trap I'm not getting myself into anymore. I already have more than enough synths to make music. I don't need Massive X to make music.

I can't make it any clearer than that.
I understand your point. But perhaps these patches are not even meant to be put in a mix but are just there to show the capabilities of the synth. Or perhaps they could be used without many other elements because they can stand on their own, e.g. cinematic sounds. However, I understand that these patches are not usable for your needs. Everyone has different needs and yours have just saved you some money. ;)
I’m constantly amazed at the cluelessness of people who’ve been in this game long enough to understand that many presets that come with any new synth are what I call “billboards.” Big advertisements for the instrument. They’re fun to go though, but of course no one uses them. They’re meant to inspire you. Of course, I’m sure some of the presets will be perfectly usable as is, or with very little tweaking, but that’s not the point. To say, “I’m not buying this instrument because someone else’s sound design is not what I use in a song” is silly. Buy Nexus and a bunch of expansions and be done with it.

What you should do, is dig into any instrument from an init patch and find out what it’s character is like. What does it do that other instruments don’t do, or don’t do as well? Then, make a decision. I’m not saying that Massive X will change your mind, but judging it based on presets isn’t a way to actually find out.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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EvilDragon wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:23 am
Stefken wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:19 am I wonder why there were sounds from the beta dropped that were actually pretty good?
Actually I've been told there was a renaming spree for a bunch of presets close to release. So some patches from that Sonicstate video definitely are there, but under a different name.

Only the highest quality patches were selected for the release, and it seems there will be continuous updates to the factory preset library as we go along - which is pretty cool.
Yeah!! Looking forward!! :tu:

BTW, friends and clients started saying already: "What is this sound? Where did you get this? Wow, that's new!" This is the real "future of sound", when working with music.

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realtrance wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:42 pm I absolutely LOVE the accelerated knobs approach -- first discovered it on my new Arturia Microfreak (which I'm spending most of my time with these days), and it really helps, either when you're using encoders on a synth, or a mouse in a PC-based GUI.
...

So the conclusion is that there is not a one fits all solution for the mouse speed knob thing. We need control about the accelerated knob and knob speed behaviour. :!:

Bering a hater about the slow speed + acceleration thing, I think it could work for me to have a negative acceleration at very very very low mouse speed just to dial in small increments. But this should never interfere with normal knob tweaking for modulating sounds.

But in case of doubt I just take a linearish knob speed with a modifer knob for high resolution like in the past.
Last edited by midi_transmission on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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'larger than life"? i just hear 'full, dense'. plus, a big sound gives you some good choices: A - make bigger music, or B - use less synths. anyway, glad i bought this thing...
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zerocrossing wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:44 pm
BlitBit wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:05 pm
wagtunes wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:54 pm Again, you're missing the point. Yes, they have to EQ the hell out of all instruments, guitars, drums, horns, you name it. Nothing gets put into a track of music straight out of the box. We all understand that...I can't make it any clearer than that.
I understand your point. But perhaps these patches are not even meant to be put in a mix but are just there to show the capabilities of the synth. Or perhaps they could be used without many other elements because they can stand on their own, e.g. cinematic sounds. However, I understand that these patches are not usable for your needs. Everyone has different needs and yours have just saved you some money. ;)
I’m constantly amazed at the cluelessness of people who’ve been in this game long enough to understand that many presets that come with any new synth are what I call “billboards.” Big advertisements for the instrument. They’re fun to go though, but of course no one uses them. They’re meant to inspire you. Of course, I’m sure some of the presets will be perfectly usable as is, or with very little tweaking, but that’s not the point. To say, “I’m not buying this instrument because someone else’s sound design is not what I use in a song” is silly. Buy Nexus and a bunch of expansions and be done with it.

What you should do, is dig into any instrument from an init patch and find out what it’s character is like. What does it do that other instruments don’t do, or don’t do as well? Then, make a decision. I’m not saying that Massive X will change your mind, but judging it based on presets isn’t a way to actually find out.
I think it also depends on what you mean by "mix". To some people that might mean guitar/bass/drums/keyboards/vocals, to others it might mean just one synth line and a drum machine, and to others 30 synths with a gloriously distorted and muddy mix.

It's pointless saying something won't fix into a mix, as you can get anything to fit into a mix if you're open minded enough to think outside of popular conventions.

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BlitBit wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:08 pm
vurt wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:03 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:57 pm Yeah I hate acceleration like this. Hopefully a settings to remove it will be given.
was cleaning my glasses as i scrolled, really thought you said "i hate accordions..."

:lol:
Echoes in the Attic walks down the street and sees an accordion player. Get's really disgusted and thinks: "Where's the setting to remove this thing?" :lol:
:lol: :lol:

And for the record, I'm not against accordians! I am however against the lack of an option to not have an accordian! Same goes for knob acceleration. ;)

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zerocrossing wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:44 pm
BlitBit wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:05 pm
wagtunes wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:54 pm Again, you're missing the point. Yes, they have to EQ the hell out of all instruments, guitars, drums, horns, you name it. Nothing gets put into a track of music straight out of the box. We all understand that.

My point is, the appeal of Massive X is it's sound. The patches are all bigger than life. Sound as good as anything I have.

But NONE of them are usable as is. They all have to be tweaked. Some a ton. Suddenly, all that "big sound" is gone so that you can fit it in the mix.

If that's the case, I don't need Massive X's big sound just to make it small, just to fit it into a mix when I already have HUNDREDS OF SYNTHS THAT CAN DO THAT.

I'm no longer impressed, nor do I care about synths that sound great out of the box because I know that if I want to use them for a song, they won't sound ANYTHING like that when the track is done. That's the trap I'm not getting myself into anymore. I already have more than enough synths to make music. I don't need Massive X to make music.

I can't make it any clearer than that.
I understand your point. But perhaps these patches are not even meant to be put in a mix but are just there to show the capabilities of the synth. Or perhaps they could be used without many other elements because they can stand on their own, e.g. cinematic sounds. However, I understand that these patches are not usable for your needs. Everyone has different needs and yours have just saved you some money. ;)
I’m constantly amazed at the cluelessness of people who’ve been in this game long enough to understand that many presets that come with any new synth are what I call “billboards.” Big advertisements for the instrument. They’re fun to go though, but of course no one uses them. They’re meant to inspire you. Of course, I’m sure some of the presets will be perfectly usable as is, or with very little tweaking, but that’s not the point. To say, “I’m not buying this instrument because someone else’s sound design is not what I use in a song” is silly. Buy Nexus and a bunch of expansions and be done with it.

What you should do, is dig into any instrument from an init patch and find out what it’s character is like. What does it do that other instruments don’t do, or don’t do as well? Then, make a decision. I’m not saying that Massive X will change your mind, but judging it based on presets isn’t a way to actually find out.
You're absolutely right. You shouldn't judge a synth solely on how the presets sound. If I did that, I'd either buy everything or not buy anything because just about every preset that the dev puts into a synth is meant to show the synth off in its best light, unless he just doesn't give a crap.

The problem is, for most synths, best light is, as you say, a billboard that is usually unusable for most musical applications. At least in my case anyway.

So, having brought up many an INIT patch in my day (only been doing this 42 years) I can honestly say that whatever Massive X will give me outside of the billboard patches can't possibly be amazing enough for me to buy yet ANOTHER synth on top of the 100 plus I already own.

In that respect, I will probably never need another synth again. So something would have to be truly revolutionary (I doubt this is) for me to spend the cash.

Not when I need a brass and woodwind library that's top of the line SO badly.

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fisherKing wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:00 pm 'larger than life"? i just hear 'full, dense'. plus, a big sound gives you some good choices: A - make bigger music, or B - use less synths. anyway, glad i bought this thing...
Right. Like no one sometimes needs a single huge sounding synth for an intro, break or just a sparse arrangement. It’s like saying, “I love the food at this restaurant, but the portions are so big!” Don’t eat it all and take home the leftovers. My wife and I often split a dish when we know the portions will be huge... or even purposely order a lot because we know we’ll bring it home and enjoy it throughout the week.

No one is forcing anyone to use a giant sound. The preset is merely there to show you that it’s possible. Also, I personally enjoy going though presets, if they’re good. What I’ll do is set up a simple drum part and then use an audio looper to loop different parts from a synth. It’s really fun to me to find a preset that can create a great track all by itself with the right modulation. A huge pad where I can dig into macros using my Touché is sometimes just what I want.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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Forgotten wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:01 pm
zerocrossing wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:44 pm
BlitBit wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:05 pm
wagtunes wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:54 pm Again, you're missing the point. Yes, they have to EQ the hell out of all instruments, guitars, drums, horns, you name it. Nothing gets put into a track of music straight out of the box. We all understand that...I can't make it any clearer than that.
I understand your point. But perhaps these patches are not even meant to be put in a mix but are just there to show the capabilities of the synth. Or perhaps they could be used without many other elements because they can stand on their own, e.g. cinematic sounds. However, I understand that these patches are not usable for your needs. Everyone has different needs and yours have just saved you some money. ;)
I’m constantly amazed at the cluelessness of people who’ve been in this game long enough to understand that many presets that come with any new synth are what I call “billboards.” Big advertisements for the instrument. They’re fun to go though, but of course no one uses them. They’re meant to inspire you. Of course, I’m sure some of the presets will be perfectly usable as is, or with very little tweaking, but that’s not the point. To say, “I’m not buying this instrument because someone else’s sound design is not what I use in a song” is silly. Buy Nexus and a bunch of expansions and be done with it.

What you should do, is dig into any instrument from an init patch and find out what it’s character is like. What does it do that other instruments don’t do, or don’t do as well? Then, make a decision. I’m not saying that Massive X will change your mind, but judging it based on presets isn’t a way to actually find out.
I think it also depends on what you mean by "mix". To some people that might mean guitar/bass/drums/keyboards/vocals, to others it might mean just one synth line and a drum machine, and to others 30 synths with a gloriously distorted and muddy mix.

It's pointless saying something won't fix into a mix, as you can get anything to fit into a mix if you're open minded enough to think outside of popular conventions.
And then you get all the critics with...

"There's too much low end mud"
"There's too much low mid"
"The mix is too dense"
"It's too boxy"
"There's no room for the vocals"

And on and on. And since I try to appeal to the masses (unsuccessfully for the most part) I don't need to make things harder for myself by using sounds that take up the entire frequency spectrum.

Besides, I can do that with what I already own.

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zerocrossing wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:11 pm
fisherKing wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:00 pm 'larger than life"? i just hear 'full, dense'. plus, a big sound gives you some good choices: A - make bigger music, or B - use less synths. anyway, glad i bought this thing...
Right. Like no one sometimes needs a single huge sounding synth for an intro, break or just a sparse arrangement. It’s like saying, “I love the food at this restaurant, but the portions are so big!” Don’t eat it all and take home the leftovers. My wife and I often split a dish when we know the portions will be huge... or even purposely order a lot because we know we’ll bring it home and enjoy it throughout the week.

No one is forcing anyone to use a giant sound. The preset is merely there to show you that it’s possible. Also, I personally enjoy going though presets, if they’re good. What I’ll do is set up a simple drum part and then use an audio looper to loop different parts from a synth. It’s really fun to me to find a preset that can create a great track all by itself with the right modulation. A huge pad where I can dig into macros using my Touché is sometimes just what I want.
And for that kind of music, yeah, these synths are great. Hit a note, move some sliders and you've made a track.

It's just not the kind of music I do and thus I won't get as much use out of something like Massive X.

In fact, for the music I do, a polyphonic mini moog is about all I really need.

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wagtunes wrote:And then you get all the critics with...

"There's too much low end mud"
"There's too much low mid"
"The mix is too dense"
"It's too boxy"
"There's no room for the vocals"

And on and on. And since I try to appeal to the masses (unsuccessfully for the most part) I don't need to make things harder for myself by using sounds that take up the entire frequency spectrum.

Besides, I can do that with what I already own.
Possibly, but some of those criticisms could be applied to pieces of music that have sold really well. I get that it's not going to work for your approach, but I don't think it will exclude others from making those presets fit in a mix.

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Forgotten wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:01 pm
zerocrossing wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:44 pm
BlitBit wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:05 pm
wagtunes wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:54 pm Again, you're missing the point. Yes, they have to EQ the hell out of all instruments, guitars, drums, horns, you name it. Nothing gets put into a track of music straight out of the box. We all understand that...I can't make it any clearer than that.
I understand your point. But perhaps these patches are not even meant to be put in a mix but are just there to show the capabilities of the synth. Or perhaps they could be used without many other elements because they can stand on their own, e.g. cinematic sounds. However, I understand that these patches are not usable for your needs. Everyone has different needs and yours have just saved you some money. ;)
I’m constantly amazed at the cluelessness of people who’ve been in this game long enough to understand that many presets that come with any new synth are what I call “billboards.” Big advertisements for the instrument. They’re fun to go though, but of course no one uses them. They’re meant to inspire you. Of course, I’m sure some of the presets will be perfectly usable as is, or with very little tweaking, but that’s not the point. To say, “I’m not buying this instrument because someone else’s sound design is not what I use in a song” is silly. Buy Nexus and a bunch of expansions and be done with it.

What you should do, is dig into any instrument from an init patch and find out what it’s character is like. What does it do that other instruments don’t do, or don’t do as well? Then, make a decision. I’m not saying that Massive X will change your mind, but judging it based on presets isn’t a way to actually find out.
I think it also depends on what you mean by "mix". To some people that might mean guitar/bass/drums/keyboards/vocals, to others it might mean just one synth line and a drum machine, and to others 30 synths with a gloriously distorted and muddy mix.

It's pointless saying something won't fix into a mix, as you can get anything to fit into a mix if you're open minded enough to think outside of popular conventions.
i mostly use eq, etc. only for effects, yes sometimes a compressor is needed. but i don't have to eq the hell out of my sounds. perhaps because most of my sounds are made by myself, but it seems that i use less and less effects for mixing problems. i use a reverb, because it needs a reverb, for the sound. or delay, or trash 2, on fx channels, with a send between them. for extra rythm.. and expanding sound in a musical way. again, perhaps it is the way i work, i make my own sounds, soft-synths, samples, etc. they are sound already most of times "the hell out". i know the conventions, but i use the conventions sometimes the opposite way, like masking, can be musical. can be. it depends. every track i make demands a different approach. and sometimes, yes sometimes, you need effects to get a working mix. "you", i mean "i"...

but perhaps in many other cases you have to, i do not know...

a "a gloriously distorted and muddy mix" can work great! not always, of course, it depends on the material, how the sounds interact, etc.

strangely, after reading the posts, i repeat, i notice that use less and less compressors for example, although i have many differen compressors. a few years back, compressors i used many times, on a track. they needed it, or my technique is different now.

there are no rules, in a sense. yes i do gain-staging... i follow some conventions, because they make sense. sometimes i follow a lot of conventions, because they work. my tracks have a style, but are very different. that demands everytime a new approach. i like that, it is more work, but i like it.

just saying, sometimes one needs a big effect chain, sometimes, the sound is the effect chain itself...

the sounds i program or make with samples (field recorder), are in a way already eq'd, and etc. one can carry sometimes one track, so it is true that my material is somewhat different.

and still some sensible things i use always.

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What's with the 1990's installer by the way? ;)
I see they are still changing default installation paths for content...

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