KVR Audio

Yorrrrrr · Post by **Yorrrrrr** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:49 am

collider wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:33 am
telecode wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:56 pm I like Serum GUI as its nice and simple. But now seems dated compared to MX and some of the other GUI's of NIs stuff.
Ehhh.. why?
A perfect GUI will never be dated IMO.

Serum GUI is not perfect.

Razzia · Post by **Razzia** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:37 am

I have Avenger, Serum, and Pigments

Serum and Pigments are quick and fun to work with, but Avenger is only marginally less speedy and intuitive, and it blows the others out of the water in terms of synthesis capabilities and overall flexibility. I think PIgments' VA oscs and filters sound a little nicer than Avenger's (albeit with significantly higher cpu consumption), but word is VPS is making a new analog filter for it.

As much as I like pigments, it has some really annoying limitations. Like the decision to put unison on the wavetable engine but not the analog engine, and not let you pan the three analog oscillators in an engine to create unison spread. You just never run into anything like that in Avenger. For all the synthesis power they built into Avenger, I don't think VPS gets enough credit for making the UI as easy and accessible as it is, and it's got the best arp I've ever used.

Whatever, you guys get the point. I'm an Avenger fanboy.

JunSev · Post by **JunSev** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am

I can't respond all in the best way possible, but need to ask to the op to read the Icarus Manual and maybe demo the synth if has not yet, and the additions of the latest updates for Icarus from version 1.0 until version 1.6. Is correct in the modulations and envelopes part, the lack of macros and more (I don't know if it will be added and improved in Icarus2).

I only have Icarus but is my go to synth all time with MSoundFactory; so need to clarify some points.

Wavetable modulation :

Icarus: PWM/Phase Distort, Harmonic mod, Formant, Filter, AM/Ringmod, Waveshape, Sync, Comb, Stack, Lofi. Only one mod can be applied on a wt.

● There is actually more than 50 morph modes for the wavetables inside those different categories.

3rd Party & DIY Wavetables:

Icarus: Full-fledged wt editor. WT are slightly different than serum so you can’t just drop em in.

● You really can drop third party wavetables, wav and more formats in, even samples and resynthesize the audio in the wavetable editor or in the main page.

Non-WT osc engines:

Icarus:vocoder.

● Icarus can load and play imported samples so it also has sampler capabilities, it has additive synthesis capabilities too and can do a lot of more stuffs.

In addition to all that Icarus has (very possible) the biggest collection of filters in any synth ever created.

loungepanda · Post by **loungepanda** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:21 am

jeffb01 wrote:
Avenger: Overall a great interface with nice visual feedback to everything except filter shapes.

To me it looks like what a club smells like at 5 am in the morning.

adamszabo · Post by **adamszabo** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:29 am

Rapid and Codex have wavetables too

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:25 pm

JunSev wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am I can't respond all in the best way possible, but need to ask to the op to read the Icarus Manual and maybe demo the synth if has not yet, and the additions of the latest updates for Icarus from version 1.0 until version 1.6. Is correct in the modulations and envelopes part, the lack of macros and more (I don't know if it will be added and improved in Icarus2).

I do own the synth (latest version) and use it, but not as much as you. I feel I got it mostly right based on your objections. If you let me know something that is wrong, I can change it.

JunSev wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am Wavetable modulation :

Icarus: PWM/Phase Distort, Harmonic mod, Formant, Filter, AM/Ringmod, Waveshape, Sync, Comb, Stack, Lofi. Only one mod can be applied on a wt.

● There is actually more than 50 morph modes for the wavetables inside those different categories.

All the synths have subcategories - for example serum has 3 kinds of sync. I decided to do main categories of 'wave morphing' and how many you can apply at a time. If I started to do sub-categories the list would go on forever and I'm not sure how helpful that would be to someone evaluating the synth to read Gorilla mode (King, Kang and Kong mode).

JunSev wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am ● You really can drop third party wavetables, wav and more formats in, even samples and resynthesize the audio in the wavetable editor or in the main page.

That was poor wording on my part. When I said drop em in, I meant without further processing in the editor. I will change the wording.

JunSev wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am
● Icarus can load and play imported samples so it also has sampler capabilities, it has additive synthesis capabilities too and can do a lot of more stuffs.

If you say it can act as a sampler, I will add that. I believe all the additive synthesis is done at the WT editor so I don't count that.

JunSev wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am In addition to all that Icarus has (very possible) the biggest collection of filters in any synth ever created.

Icarus has a very nice selection of high quality filters. I decided to focus on filter routing as I thought all of the synth had a wide assortment of high quality filters (with sub-categories) and quality is so subjective.

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:27 pm

adamtrance wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:29 am Rapid and Codex have wavetables too

I don't own those. If you want to give me the info for the above categories I will add them...

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm

Hive is nowadays one of the best wavetable synths available. Yet it was left out. Same applies to DUNE.

OTOH, both HALion and Falcon have incredibly powerful wavetable capabilities too (overpassing the vast majority of the wavetable synths listed)

Regarding the number of factory wavteables, that is one of less important items to judge a synth, IMO. I have litteally hundresd of wavetables I can easily convenrt from one wytnh to another, and many synths even have their own wavetable editor, or ways to import audio and transform it in wavetables.

For example, you state that Pigments cannot create wavetables - that simply is NOT TRUE. If you open a WAV file, Pigments immediatelly transforms it (reads it) as a wavetable. This can lead to very good results (or not), but the fact is that it CAN create wavetables out of simple WAV files directly.

That's much more important than coming with hundreds of pre-built wavetables, IMO. Yet, you list that as the second feature in your list.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:12 pm

JunSev wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am 3rd Party & DIY Wavetables:

Icarus: Full-fledged wt editor. WT are slightly different than serum so you can’t just drop em in.

● You really can drop third party wavetables, wav and more formats in, even samples and resynthesize the audio in the wavetable editor or in the main page.

Actually, Icarus is possibly the best one for resynthesizing an audio file and converting it into a wavetable, closely followed by HALion and Pigments, It's amazing how most people neglects this feature in a wavetable synth.

realtrance · Post by **realtrance** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:27 pm

Has anyone mentioned Ableton's Wavetable yet? I don't have the list of features in front of me to compare with the others mentioned here, but sonically it's certainly a contender.

DJErmac · Post by **DJErmac** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:43 pm

jeffb01 wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:41 pm
GUI (very subjective):
Pigments: Excellent interface. Intuitive and quick to get things done.
Results: Pigments & Serum > Avenger & Icarus > Massive X

Yeah, yeah, I know what "subjective" means, but I just find it funny. In my view Pigments doesn't only has a half-baked GUI, it's like they didn't even bother making a GUI : it's a non-existant GUI, so ugly that I couldn't believe my graphic card was displaying it right !

But eh, I love Avenger's GUI and somebody just said he hates it, so...

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:56 pm

DJErmac wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:43 pm
jeffb01 wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:41 pm
GUI (very subjective):
Pigments: Excellent interface. Intuitive and quick to get things done.
Results: Pigments & Serum > Avenger & Icarus > Massive X
Yeah, yeah, I know what "subjective" means, but I just find it funny. In my view Pigments doesn't only has a half-baked GUI, it's like they didn't even bother making a GUI : it's a non-existant GUI, so ugly that I couldn't believe my graphic card was displaying it right !

But eh, I love Avenger's GUI and somebody just said he hates it, so...

Ha. Pigment is actually my favorite GUI of the bunch. It's not a perfect synth, but the visual feedback is pretty top notch. I understand both sides of the Avenger GUI argument. It just does so much so it's understandable, but some stuff seems a little packed in (lfo section, tiny type). I still think it's a great GUI and It's one of my all time fav synths though.

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:58 pm

realtrance wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:27 pm Has anyone mentioned Ableton's Wavetable yet? I don't have the list of features in front of me to compare with the others mentioned here, but sonically it's certainly a contender.

I would love to add it (or any wt synth with morphable waves) but I don't use ableton so I wouldn't be the person to do each category. If you want to submit each category to me (pm or here), I would love to add it.

buzz1 · Post by **buzz1** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:08 pm

WHAT ABOUT ADDING CPU CONSUMPTION TO THE LIST?

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:15 pm

buzz1 wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:08 pm WHAT ABOUT ADDING CPU CONSUMPTION TO THE LIST?

I love the idea... I was thinking like how many keys of a sawtooth with 6x unison could I play before 100%, but I pressed 14 keys down and CPU didn't budge too much (2012 mac mini). I'm hesitant to use reverb as reverb quality can be so different. So I want a test I can measure with keys pressed that is comparable patch on all synths.

any ideas?

Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...