First official SONAR 4 review is in!

[WillieJenkins]

hey billybk1,

those are some great tips there, the alt-click is going to save me some serious time!

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

I copied this thorough and concise explanation from a fellow SONAR user and KVR forum member. I wish I could remember his name. But, using his modus operandi, really changed the way I edit MIDI, in SONAR, for the better.

Hi Billy,

That explanation came from me (in response to a post by TeeLangSun) -- and I'm really glad you found it helpful. I've posted similar details on Sonar's Piano Roll editing functions several times in response to other posts by TeeLangSun. One exchange included a pretty detailed comparison between the editing commands in Sonar versus those in FL Studio. It seems that my descriptions of how Sonar's MIDI editing tools actually work just don't resonate with TeeLangSun somehow because he continues to claim that you have to change tools for every different operation in Sonar (it's definitely a "Groundhog's Day" kind of thing). Oh well, I'm still hopeful that one day I will figure out a way to get through to him.

Again, I'm glad you (and others, it seems) found it useful. And thanks for saving and reposting it.

Mr. Slater's Parrot (aka James)

[billybk1]

hey billybk1,

those are some great tips there, the alt-click is going to save me some serious time!

Glad it has helped. Those MIDI editing tips really increased my productivty, while using S3. I had been editing MIDI, the hard way (constantly changing tools), in Cakewalk apps since Pro Audio 8 days. Incorporating those power user tips into my MIDI editing habits proved you can teach an ol' dog new tricks.

Just paying it forward........

[billybk1]

I copied this thorough and concise explanation from a fellow SONAR user and KVR forum member. I wish I could remember his name. But, using his modus operandi, really changed the way I edit MIDI, in SONAR, for the better.

Hi Billy,

That explanation came from me (in response to a post by TeeLangSun) -- and I'm really glad you found it helpful. I've posted similar details on Sonar's Piano Roll editing functions several times in response to other posts by TeeLangSun. One exchange included a pretty detailed comparison between the editing commands in Sonar versus those in FL Studio.

No wonder I could not remember you, James A, you have been posting under a pseudonym. Yes, I do remember that exchange you had with TeeLangSun, over MIDI editing now. I believe it was from one of those posts that I had copied and pasted, verbatim, your well explained tutorial, into my SONAR Tips & Tricks folder. Well, at least in TeeLangSun's case, I guess the old adage still holds true, you can't teach an ol' dog new tricks

Again, I'm glad you (and others, it seems) found it useful. And thanks for saving and reposting it.

I am going to add your name as author (James Althoff)for the mini-tutorial and name it "MIDI Editing in SONAR 3 & 4 for the Power User" I have often copied and pasted it before in other forums and would feel better if you were recognized for your efforts.

I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

[TeeLangSun]

I find SONAR's MIDI editing to be quite strong & robust and by using the right editing tool, the Draw Line Tool and left/right mouse clicks and modifier keys, you can do virtually everything you want without changing tools. I copied this thorough and concise explanation from a fellow SONAR user and KVR forum member. I wish I could remember his name. But, using his modus operandi, really changed the way I edit MIDI, in SONAR, for the better. By using the Draw Line Tool exclusively, you can loop a section and edit all your MIDI, effortlessly, from the Piano Roll, with zero gapping. Now with the addition of the ultra programmable "Nudge" function, in SONAR 4,it is more powerful than ever. Whereas before I crawled.......... now I sprint

Thanks for replying. I will briefly describe what I found using these techniques.

"Drag in the timebar selects all notes within the selected time range. No need to change tools."

I was able to select multiple notes this way, but I wasn't able to drag and copy those notes. In order to do that, I still needed to go back to the direct selection tool. It also takes longer to select in this timeline because you have to aim the mouse just right. A little too high and you get a "ping" letting you know that you're selecting in the wrong place. It's much faster and easier to simply use a key modifyer and lasso a large area of notes and delete or whatever. This method seems unnecissarily messy.

I think the biggest thing for me is that I'd like to grab a note, move it in all directions at will, left, right, up down, and diagonally, with note preview all the while I'm doing it. The only tool in Sonar which can move a note in all directions, is the direct select tool which does not give a note preview, but is otherwise sufficient to do everything else I need.

In fact, it works exactly like I'd expect it to work,including the key modifyers, and I'd have no trouble using it except for the note preview. Being forced to directly vertical, or directly horizontal seems to be fine as an option, but I'd prefer to use a key modifyer to constrain the direction when "I" want it. Otherwise, it takes longer for me to first drag in one direction. Stop. Re- find the spot on the note that allows me to drag in the other direction. I wonder what is the limitation regarding that direct select tool anyway. Why doesn't it have note preview?

[TeeLangSun]

It seems that my descriptions of how Sonar's MIDI editing tools actually work just don't resonate with TeeLangSun somehow because he continues to claim that you have to change tools for every different operation in Sonar (it's definitely a "Groundhog's Day" kind of thing). Oh well, I'm still hopeful that one day I will figure out a way to get through to him.

Mr. Slater's Parrot (aka James)

Alright, I see you're trying to take a potshot now. At any rate, I'm sticking to my guns. Read my last post, or earlier posts and it requires a couple of tools to do what a single tool will do in Fruity Loops. I was certain that we'd covered and agreed on that but here we are again with you taking potshots to prop up Sonar's piano roll. In the end, I'm certain you can get your work done in Sonar just fine and you're happy with it. That's good. But it still takes a couple of tools to do what a single tool will do in Fruity Loops, Cubase, and Logic as far as I know. In Sonar, if you want to get a note preview, you have to work under the one direction at a time constraints which I'm sure is fine for some, but for someone accustomed to any of the other sequencers, it's a strange limitation. If I want to move freely in all directions, guess what, I HAVE TO CHANGE TO ANOTHER TOOL. If I want get a note preview, I HAVE TO CHANGE TO ANOTHER TOOL AGAIN. If I want to drag a selection around a group of notes and drag and copy them, I HAVE TO CHANGE TO ANOTHER TOOL. See, nothing's changed since the last time when I though we agree on all these specific points but I'm sure you and others will continue to be selective about what you remember when it comes to the program you love. By the way, I'd love to hear your comments on the point I mentioned about Control A to select all notes and delete. I mean, I'm sure I'm missing the point with that right. Help me out

[WillieJenkins]

heh. complain about potshots, then make your own. real high road of you

the ctrl-a thing is definitely a bug, I can replicate it here, but unfortunately for you it has no relation at all to your previous complaints. The fact you are bringing it up proves that you have nothing at all to offer in rebuttal to all of us trying to solve your problems.

Furthermore, if you didn't actually want any help, why didn't you just state in your initial post:
"I don't actually want to be helped, I just want to whine and complain about this product."

Also, moving in all directions is not preferable by default imo, ESPECIALLY when editing on a note level, because in most cases you either want to change the start/end time, or the pitch and not both.

I can see where this would be a workflow difference however, midi COMPOSING vs. midi EDITING. It sounds like you like to do lots of midi composing, where you create a note and move it all around finding where you like it, I never use piano roll this way, I use it as an editor only, meaning its more or less where I want it (as played in off a midi keyboard), but maybe I'd like to test a different note/instrument, or edit the start/end point to change the groove up.

Having 'move in all directions' tied to that tool would be very bad for me, because then I'd need to be hitting modifiers all the time to make sure it either only moved horizontal or vertical like I do in track view.

Having said that, if the cakewalkers could find an intuitive way of adding ALL features into one tool w/o allowing me to make unintentional mistakes when editing (more than I already do now) then I'd be all for it. But imo, since your right hand is on the mouse and the left hand is presumably doing nothing, I have 0 problem with using the left hand to occasionally press a letter to switch to another tool in the rare cases I need to.

Lastly, if you actually find the FL Studio midi editing tools more intuitive useful then Sonar's then God bless you and good luck (Yes, that was a potshot)

-Eric

[WillieJenkins]

further workflow suggestions:

as I was saying, I think of the piano roll as a detailed editor for dealing with notes on a note level.

I think of the track view ESPECIALLY with the new mute tool, nudge, track folders (for composite clips) as my 'overview' editor. meaning if I'm copying and pasting multiple groups of notes, then thats probably something more productively done in track view.

Clearly this is more useful for moving horizontally and not vertically, but since moving a mass number of notes vertically would essentially be changing keys, if the notes were mapped to diatonic material, I wouldn't see why using the non-destructive transpose in the track view wouldn't be more preferable.

[billybk1]

TeeLangSun,
I guess we can agree to disagree
Nothing wrong with the way you want to edit your MIDI, but when you said Piano roll unfortunately is still as poor as before , I will have to respectively disagree. I suspect for 99% of the people out there, editing MIDI in SONAR, using the Draw Line Tool, a mouse in one hand and using a few select modifying keys, when needed, with the other ( S - Select Tool, L - Draw Line Tool and the Alt Left click modifier) will be no less productive than using any other MIDI app. You obviously like doing things a certain way, and that is fine, but I don't think that makes SONAR any less of a MIDI editing app because of it.

Best Regards

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

No wonder I could not remember you, James A, you have been posting under a pseudonym.

Yes, around the time when I hit 1,000 posts I switched the name -- a reference to a song by the Bonzo Dog Band (I had recently loaded their music on my iPod after not listening to it for a long while and was inspired, once again ). It seemed like so few posters were using regular names that I should get on the bandwagon!

I am going to add your name as author (James Althoff)for the mini-tutorial and name it "MIDI Editing in SONAR 3 & 4 for the Power User" I have often copied and pasted it before in other forums and would feel better if you were recognized for your efforts.

Thanks, Billy. That's very thoughtful of you!

[TeeLangSun]

TeeLangSun,
I guess we can agree to disagree
Nothing wrong with the way you want to edit your MIDI, but when you said Piano roll unfortunately is still as poor as before , I will have to respectively disagree.

OK, fine. I agree that comment was just a matter of opinion, but my point was that it takes several tools to do in Sonar what it takes a single tool to do in Fruity Loops or the other sequencers I mentioned. That you couldn't do a certain number of things in Sonar with a single tool, which you must agree with since you have not countered it with anything more than opinions. If you decide that it's "fine" to use a couple of tools, then that's also fine with me, but my point still stands, and will stand the next time you pop up with cheap shots at how I'm just not getting it.

I suspect for 99% of the people out there, editing MIDI in SONAR, using the Draw Line Tool, a mouse in one hand and using a few select modifying keys, when needed, with the other ( S - Select Tool, L - Draw Line Tool and the Alt Left click modifier) will be no less productive than using any other MIDI app.

That's a lovely answer, but it has no facts or answers to my direct questions. I have assume this means that we agree on my specific points then, no?

[munchkin]

I find the seperate piano roll in Sonar a real PITA. Opening two windows is annoying IMO and no amount of disuassion will change my mind. I've reached this conclusion after trying some of the other hosts. I find this way of organising things improves my work-flow. For me it speeds up editing if audio and midi editing are in the same window.

I would love the piano roll to be incorporated in the track view like in Tracktion, Ableton Live 4, Fruity Loops and now Cubase 3. My hope is that Cakewalk is watching how the other host do it and will incorporate this in Sonar. Maybe track editing and the piano roll can co-exist. Then everyone will be happy. But dismissing track view editing of midi is a personal preference rather than an objective opinion about what's good for the development of Sonar.

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

TeeLangSun says:
Alright, I see you're trying to take a potshot now. At any rate, I'm sticking to my guns. Read my last post, or earlier posts and it requires a couple of tools to do what a single tool will do in Fruity Loops. I was certain that we'd covered and agreed on that but here we are again with you taking potshots to prop up Sonar's piano roll. In the end, I'm certain you can get your work done in Sonar just fine and you're happy with it. That's good. But it still takes a couple of tools to do what a single tool will do in Fruity Loops, Cubase, and Logic as far as I know. In Sonar, if you want to get a note preview, you have to work under the one direction at a time constraints which I'm sure is fine for some, but for someone accustomed to any of the other sequencers, it's a strange limitation. If I want to move freely in all directions, guess what, I HAVE TO CHANGE TO ANOTHER TOOL. If I want get a note preview, I HAVE TO CHANGE TO ANOTHER TOOL AGAIN. If I want to drag a selection around a group of notes and drag and copy them, I HAVE TO CHANGE TO ANOTHER TOOL. See, nothing's changed since the last time when I though we agree on all these specific points but I'm sure you and others will continue to be selective about what you remember when it comes to the program you love. By the way, I'd love to hear your comments on the point I mentioned about Control A to select all notes and delete. I mean, I'm sure I'm missing the point with that right. Help me out

Potshot? What are you saying, TeeLangSun? Oh, all right, I admit -- it was a bit of one. I even hesitated before hitting the Submit button because I really don't like shooting pots. But, it was pretty minor, in any case, no? Nonetheless, I aplogize for any offense taken.

Still, it does seem like your comments continue to go in the direction of something like "one has to switch midi tools all the time in Sonar" rather than something like "Sonar lets you do almost everything with one midi editing tool although you need to switch from time to time for the occasional task". (Apologies in advance for any shattered pots from this observation, as well. )

Maybe the difference between you and me in the perceived ease of use of Sonar's midi editing has to do with certain editing tasks. You seem to want to grab a group of notes and move them to arbitrary positions in the piano roll -- changing both their pitch and start times. And then delete a couple of them. And then move them somewhere else. And do this a lot. Hence, you want the "group select" tool to be the primary editing tool.

As for me, I can hardly think of a time I've ever wanted to do that kind of thing. I generally start by drawing some midi notes (or record them or paste an existing sequence of notes) and them make certain kinds of changes. For example, I might want to change the inversion of a chord. So I grab one of the notes and change if from a low C to a high C, for example. Or I fix a mistaken note like changing a C# to a C. Or I might want to adjust the start time of a note. Or change its duration. Or change the property of a note. Or adjust its velocity or some cc value. Or delete a note or a sequence of notes withing a range of time. Or draw a bunch of new notes. Etc., etc. All of these operations I can do in Sonar using the primary midi editing tool, which, in Sonar, happens to be the Draw (or DrawLine) tool, not the Group Select tool. Anyway, I do a huge amount of midi composing and editing in Sonar's Piano Roll View and, seriously, I hardly ever have the need to switch to the Group Select tool. For example, 99% of the time that I want to move a group of notes, those notes are right next to each other -- a snippet of melody, harmony, or chords -- and I can just select them in the Time Ruler and then copy and paste them somewhere else -- no need to switch to a Group Select tool. It would be interesting for me to watch you do some composing and editing; maybe, then, I would understand why you spend so much time doing non-time-related group selects?

As far as horizontal and vertical motion constraints, for me that is an *essential* feature. If I want to correct the pitch of a note or change the inversion of a chord, I want to focus on the pitch change without having to worry about accidentally messing up the start time of the note. Similarly, if I want to change the start time of a note, the last thing that I want is to have to worry about accidentally screwing up its pitch. For the rare occasion that I want to change both the pitch *and* start time of a note, sliding it vertically and then horizontally or vice versa is a breeze. It just doesn't seem like the slightest hassle to me. Of course, I wouldn't object at all to having a modifier key that lets me move in both directions in one motion as an option; I just wouldn't use it much, myself.

For previewing notes, I just click on the keyboard in the Piano Roll View to preview a note -- no need to switch tools that way.

Regarding bugs in Sonar -- sure it has some. I've reported a few to Cakewalk, myself. Let's get them all reported to Cakewalk so that they can get fixed!

And, finally, good luck to you using your preferred hosts.

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

I find the seperate piano roll in Sonar a real PITA. Opening two windows is annoying IMO and no amount of disuassion will change my mind. I've reached this conclusion after trying some of the other hosts. I find this way of organising things improves my work-flow. For me it speeds up editing if audio and midi editing are in the same window.

I would love the piano roll to be incorporated in the track view like in Tracktion, Ableton Live 4, Fruity Loops and now Cubase 3. My hope is that Cakewalk is watching how the other host do it and will incorporate this in Sonar. Maybe track editing and the piano roll can co-exist. Then everyone will be happy. But dismissing track view editing of midi is a personal preference rather than an objective opinion about what's good for the development of Sonar.

For me, adding an ability to edit midi in the Track View of Sonar would be a nice *option* for very small editing tasks. However, not having a dedicated, full window for heavy-duty midi editing would be completely unacceptable. I do a huge amount of midi composing in my projects. For me, it is essential to have the full display available when doing heavy-duty midi composing and editing. One of Sonar's fantastic features, for example, is the ability to take two or more tracks and overlay them in the Piano Roll View. You can change the colors on the fly for the notes in the tracks, enable/disable editing on the fly, etc. If you have two or more parts that interact very closely -- counterpoint harmony, for example -- there simply is no substitute for this highly valuable feature, IMHO.

For me, I find the incredibly minor hassle of switching over to the Piano Roll View for midi editing well worth it -- a thousand times over -- for the added convenience and power it gives in terms of actual midi editing capabilities.

Just my two cents, of course.

[munchkin]

I do a huge amount of midi composing in my projects. For me, it is essential to have the full display available when doing heavy-duty midi composing and editing. One of Sonar's fantastic features, for example, is the ability to take two or more tracks and overlay them in the Piano Roll View. You can change the colors on the fly for the notes in the tracks, enable/disable editing on the fly, etc. If you have two or more parts that interact very closely -- counterpoint harmony, for example -- there simply is no substitute for this highly valuable feature, IMHO.

For me, I find the incredibly minor hassle of switching over to the Piano Roll View for midi editing well worth it -- a thousand times over -- for the added convenience and power it gives in terms of actual midi editing capabilities.

Just my two cents, of course.

I do a huge amount of editing in Sonar as well. In fact most of my music uses midi. While I agree that editing multiple tracks in the piano roll is an essential feature that I wouldn't like to lose I can't see why this cannot be incorporated in the Track view.

Now that there are track folders wouldn't it be possible to develop something similar to the way audio is managed? Using parts of different audio takes on different tracks for example is possible now so why not develop something similar for midi?

We are used to the piano roll but I think it's worth exploring different ways of working with midi. Audio editing has developed enourmously in Sonar track view so why not midi?