KVR Audio

Moe Shinola · Post by **Moe Shinola** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:08 pm

"you shall defend Company at your expense with counsel approved by Company, which approval shall not be unreasonably withheld. In the event you fail to retain approved counsel, Company may, if it so elects, defend itself at your cost and expense "

I'd like to try and market a track online, but Apple and Amazon both go through this company. So basically anyone could claim copyright infringement(which would be a lie - the only recognizable samples I got online were from freesound.org and only one of those was not CC 0, but rather CC Attribution). But still, the expense I'd be forced to go to, and I can barely support myself as it is, why bother? Anyone have any experience with these people, or any horror stories to share about them?

Skupje · Post by **Skupje** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:36 pm

Hard to say what this is supposed to mean? More common would be to catch an address like this, so you have someone more than a pseudonym to take to court.
In this case the host will not withhold contact information.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:45 pm

<Company may, if it so elects, defend itself at your cost and expense>

They're asserting they've already won a judgement by that.
This is just bullshit unless they have already prevailed in a judgment, it can't be legally binding.

Forgotten · Post by **Forgotten** » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:06 pm

Possibly unenforceable, as most contracts are invalidated if they are deemed to be 'unconscionable' contracts.

AsPeeXXXVIII · Post by **AsPeeXXXVIII** » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Speaking of TuneCore, I had one of my old albums published through them for just over a year. But when I found that it wasn't making me any profit, I decided to pull it from the service.

Worst $50 I ever spent.

Moe Shinola · Post by **Moe Shinola** » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:11 pm

AsPeeXXXVIII wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:07 pm Speaking of TuneCore, I had one of my old albums published through them for just over a year. But when I found that it wasn't making me any profit, I decided to pull it from the service.

Worst $50 I ever spent.

Did you find a good alternative? I'm looking for an outlet for one of my tracks.

AsPeeXXXVIII · Post by **AsPeeXXXVIII** » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:23 pm

Moe Shinola wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:11 pm
AsPeeXXXVIII wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:07 pm Speaking of TuneCore, I had one of my old albums published through them for just over a year. But when I found that it wasn't making me any profit, I decided to pull it from the service.

Worst $50 I ever spent.
Did you find a good alternative? I'm looking for an outlet for one of my tracks.

I haven't used a distribution service since trying out TuneCore, but I've heard good things about DistroKid. They'll get your music up on all the major platforms, as well as a selection of smaller ones, and they'll even take care of licenses and royalties for you if you make covers. And it only costs about $20 a year.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:28 am

how about a link to the full document? The fact that both apple and amazon uses this company suggests to me they likely have a better team of lawyers than a bunch of forum members but to post on par out of context is absolutely nothing to go on. I mean absolutely no offense to anyone here but I have a very hard time believing that two different billion dollar companies would not have a legal team that checked these things better than people on a forum, especially a forum as global as this with all the different laws around the world.

Broken record time but if you really care about your music why on earth would you post a selective quote on a music forum looking for serious legal advice? Are you just asking for bad advice? Look up entertainment lawyers in your area, book an hour or two of time (likely an hour or less will answer your questions), it's a very wise investment. Write down your questions, be organized and consider it as valuable an investment as any piece of gear because the advice you get could last you a very long time.

Of course your other option is to go with shithouse lawyers (wannabe lawyers) as we called them in the army, they have all the answers, they know everything and they have no problem at all gambling with your future. They also have absolutely nothing to lose gambling with your future, if they are wrong they learn something at your expense. On the other hand if you go with a lawyer who is recognized by the bar association than they have ethics they must follow and you have recourse if they steer you wrong...just sayin...I've been here a very long time, I have many very good friends here and for the sake of those friendships I would take my advice before taking legal advice from 99.99% of the people here (the .01% is saved for those who I actually know to be lawyers, I wont reveal who of course but there are some...who would prefer not to be solicited for free advice)

So if you want to continue on this line, please show us the full agreement (I really dont have time to google it) but honestly, if I were you I would talk to a pro...call a lawyer

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 am

You have the time to write that verbose of a rant (revealing only of _your_ understanding, frankly) but not to lasso a statement and 'search google' which took 10 seconds maybe (since it's the exact language of the T&C)?

https://tunelicensing.com/site/page?nam ... conditions

It is reality that entities which sue tend to want to recover atty's and court costs, and when_they_prevail will possibly be granted that by the judge in the case. What I said was this acts like they've won the case going in. That is a reality-oriented observation.

Full reveal: I have actually worked as the researcher for an attorney (meaning I looked up case law in the law library and helped formulate arguments on precedent) which makes me pretty familiar with procedure and expectation. I never talked about that here for obvious reasons.
But this is very boilerplate common stuff people who have been sued know from. I'm ALSO ONLY COMMENTING, I didn't say act this way or that. No one has. It's as though no one now can state an opinion on the lingo because your opinion is so strongly... don't be lawyers! that we all stand to be insulted for it.

Rant on, though. Such a model for respect of your peers on a forum you are.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:57 am

the quoted bit in the OP is taken out of this context

Should you violate these Terms of Use or any other rights of Company or any third parties, including, without limitation, i) infringing the copyrights of Company’s licensors, or any other third party, or ii) manufacturing, reproducing or distributing any recording embodying musical compositions beyond the number or type of mechanical licenses requested, Company and its licensors reserve the right to pursue any and all legal and equitable remedies against you, including without limitation, terminating any and all user accounts;

Yep, that tends to be the case.

But this:
in such event, you also agree to indemnify Company against any claim by such licensors or other third party in accordance with section 13 below.

You shall defend and indemnify Company and any of its affiliates (including any directors, members, officers, employees, other representatives, subsidiaries, affiliates and licensors) and hold them harmless against any third party claims or expenses, losses or damages (including without limitation any reasonable attorneys’ fees and litigation expenses) resulting from: i) a breach, or a claim which, if true, would constitute a breach, of the foregoing representations and warranties or any of the agreements contained in these Terms of Service; or ii) your unauthorized use of the Site or musical compositions licensed by Company; or iii) your violation of any rights of another party.

Talks about the end of a case and threatens you with consequences. I would say in general don't violate TOS because they're talking kind of tough. And I feel free to say such a normal kind of a thing. I personally wouldn't sign this.
But I personally wouldn't be violating anybody's copyright. BUT in the current climate {eg., Youtube} people claim ownership they do not enjoy; and you're admitting defeat and already have indemnified them as to costs suing you going in. This is factual based in their actual statement. The argument <these are the big boys and so this is not what you say it is.> is not a very good one, John.

This is not legal advice, but for me it's common sense. On a level playing field "I won't be violating terms of service stealing protected IP" is normative but it's the POV of the OP this is not a level playing field.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:05 am

But we should all consider ourselves so helpless we need to be bowled over by the strength of the argument 'shithouse lawyers' here and pay somebody 250 an hour to think this through for us.

Moe Shinola · Post by **Moe Shinola** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:12 am

I appreciate jancivil's posts, I have just heard of too many creators on YouTube claiming they got phony copyright strikes they couldn't appeal and thinking, "Is is THAT easy, to derail somebody's YouTube acccount?" If it is, think how easy someone could derail me so I wouldn't dare market some tune they claimed had infringing material on it(even if it were BS). I've collected soooo many samples from CM/FM/Music Tech/on and on and on, over the last 15 years. Who knows what someone could claim. I'd like someone in my corner who would at least not side with the enemy the minute I needed help. TuneCore dosen't sound like that someone to me, reading their T&C. That's all. I know none of you are lawyers, I just hoped maybe you could debunk this for me if I wasn't reading it right. I can be pretty thick sometimes.

Skupje · Post by **Skupje** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:48 am

Still I don't really get what is so evil about this contract, since it's a civil offense. It may be a blessing in disguise. I don't know if a copy strike implies an imminent takedown on youtube? At least not for long if the striking party fails to proceed to see you in court. On the other hand it may be annoying to get ripped off and not be able to locate someone getting fat of your work. Which is possible in the current scenario regardless.

Would be bummer to get taken down by one of those SOPA/PIPA bots tho.
Lets hope these things work out for the best..

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:57 pm

jancivil wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:05 am But we should all consider ourselves so helpless we need to be bowled over by the strength of the argument 'shithouse lawyers' here and pay somebody 250 an hour to think this through for us.

funny thing is until I said anything the advice in this thread was exactly as I said...you couldn't be arsed to look further into it either until you wanted to try and make me look bad. Fact is once we saw the entire thing we saw any advice give was really nothing. I stand by my words, I am going to take my legal advice from a pro if needed (note I did not say I would need it in this case) and not ask on a forum. Notice also I said "write down your questions" not "question", you see if I were to see a lawyer for something like this I would go in with the idea of getting plenty of bang for my buck and ask plenty of questions. I dont go with "Full reveal: I have actually worked as the researcher for an attorney (meaning I looked up case law in the law library and helped formulate arguments on precedent) which makes me pretty familiar with procedure and expectation. I never talked about that here for obvious reasons." I go with diplomas on the wall, legal practice, background checks and real paralegals.

No offense (wait I said that before and yet you took offense), but if I listened to people who thought they knew what they were talking about I would still be living in a crap apartment and the nursing home would have ate all my mother's assets. Instead (at a cost of over 50k) I went against the advice of all the know it alls and hired a lawyer and look where I'm living...I mean honestly, not even the people from senior services had ever heard of this trust.

But thank you Jan for getting the whole agreement and posting it so that the OP got what he was looking for.

Have any of you actually read TuneCore's T&C? Scary!