Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
buzz1
KVRist
31 posts since 23 Mar, 2019

Post Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:07 am

perpetual3 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:03 am
buzz1 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:56 am
S0lo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:40 am
jeffb01 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:46 am
buzz1 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:48 am
The surprise cpu synth seems to be Serum. No worse the the others really and clearly better than Pigments. Strange....
Yeah. The CPU test had lots of surprises. Thank you for the idea. Maybe I should have a control group in case all those synths are higher in CPU, but I don't think people agree on a low CPU synth. A lot of people say sylenth is a low CPU synth - does it have 6x unison? I could probably download the demo.
O Sylenth would be hard to beat when it comes to CPU usage.

Yes more than 6x Unison.
Thing is there are two different levels of unison. Either just osc waveforms with Sylenth and others or entire patches on ,say, Massive x. I imagine the latter is the more cpu intensive.
MX uses AVX, so the CPU hit is much less intensive.
I'm sure that's right.
I was only referring to differences between the two unison types.

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telecode
KVRian
628 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:43 am

JoeCat wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:05 am
Just wanted to say - this is a very useful thread.
And kudos to Fathom's post.
agreed. publish your findings along with methodology on Google Sites or Medium post or something.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear

Image

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Forgotten
KVRian
1152 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:09 pm

Yorrrrrr wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:14 pm
No Hive 2 and DUNE 3?
Definitely would like to see them there too. I don't have either, but if someone were to provide the data, it would be useful to me to compare with the others.

One other thing that might be helpful to add to the initial post is the format of non-proprietary 3rd party wavetables that can be imported, i.e. wav32, wav24, wav64, etc.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
15815 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:03 am

Vortifex wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:21 am
I rather like Icarus. The clear and intuitive layout, the workflow, the sound and features with resynthesis, vocoder, tons of great filters, doesn't kill my CPU. Just all round a really great synth.
Icarus is excellent. I like the quality of its resynthesis and it has some musical morph modes and the dual filters with lots of creative filter types

I think it would be useful to have some different terminology for a synth like Icarus and for Massive X rather than just calling them both wavetable synths.

I recently was working on a project and resynthesized some vocal samples I recorded into wavetables in Icarus. Not only is it not possible to do resynthesis in Massive X, it cannot even import existing wavetables.

It seems almost a prerequisite to me that a synth called a wavetable synth needs to at least import wavetables (like to be called a sampler, it needs to be able to import samples). The difference is so big that the terminology should reflect it. That project I did in Icarus would have been impossible in MX.

Anyway, appreciate the work that went into the comparison!

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jeffb01
KVRian
877 posts since 18 Apr, 2006

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:08 am

Forgotten wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:09 pm
One other thing that might be helpful to add to the initial post is the format of non-proprietary 3rd party wavetables that can be imported, i.e. wav32, wav24, wav64, etc.
That's a good idea. If anyone has that info, I will put it in. Though I imagine most of these synths can bring pretty much any wave in.

steefthtje
KVRer
13 posts since 28 Feb, 2019

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 am

Version # used & List Price:
SynthMaster 2.9
$99 (Almost always on sale for a lot less.)

GUI (very subjective):
SynthMaster 2.9:
Ok interface. Can take some time to learn for some. Has some visual feedback but more than Massive X. Also comes with different skins.

Number of Factory Wavetables:
SynthMaster 2.9:
≈ 108 (that I counted)

3rd Party & DIY Wavetables:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Simple wavetable editor just add in your own waveforms. Does support 3rd party wav. files

Wavetable Organization:
SynthMaster2.9:
Like Serum allows folders within folder for easy organization.

Number of Wavetable Oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
4 (2 per layer x 2 Layers)

Wavetable Modulations:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Spectral (LP, HP, LS, HS, BP, BS), Bend (Bend+, Bend-, Bend+/-), Sync (Rect Window, Half Cos Window, Cos Window, Tri Window, Saw Window), Pulse (Pulse1, Pulse2) and Bit Crush. Only one can be applied of these. On top of this FM or PM and AM Can be applied to each WT Osc.

Number of additional audible Oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Each of 2 WT Osc can use 2 out 4 mods. 1st mod can be used for FM or PM (any one of 500 waveforms). 2nd Mod can be used for RM or as an extra Osc (any one of 500 waveforms) (this is great to use as a sub Osc).

Noise oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Use any of the Main Osc or Mods located after the Main Osc for Noise. Can import your own noise samples in wav. files.

Non-WT osc engines:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Basic single wave subtractive (500 single wave), Additive (Combining up to 8 Osc and choose any of 500 single waveform), Vector (Morth between 4 waveforms on a XY pad), Audio in.

Unison:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Each osc can have up to 16 voices, additionally each layer can go up to 8 voices unison.

Able to add distortion before or between filters:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Distortion option for all filters, Before filter, Inside filter, After filter, No Distortion.

Filters:
Synthmaster 2.9:
4 Filters (2 per layer x 2 layers) (Split, Parallel, Series)

ARP/ Sequencer:
Synthmaster 2.9:
2 Arpeggiators, 1 per layer with modes such as Up, Down, UpDown, DownUp, UpDown2, DownUp2, AsPlayed, Sequence, Chord and Arpeggiate modes. Each of up to 32 steps has its own Velocity, Note Number, Note Length, Slide and Hold parameters.

Total LFO/Mseg/Envelope Modulators:
Synthmaster 2.9:
36 (per layer: 4 ADSR Envelopes, 2X & 2Y 2D Envelopes, 2 Multistage Envelopes, 4 KeyScalers, 2 LFOs. Plus 4 Global LFOs.)

LFOs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Up to 6 LFOs. 2 Per layer plus 4 Global. For shapes choose between Sine, Tri, Sqr, Saw, Step, Glide, and Dual (morth between 2 out of 500 Osc waveforms as your LFO shapes). All LFOs come with their own Speed, Volume, Phase, Noise, Delay, Attack, Release, and Final Knobs for more control.

Envelopes:
SynthMaster 2.9:
4 ADSR Env, 2 MSEG Env, 2 2D Env.

MSEG
Synthmaster 2.9:
2 MSEG Env. 2 2D Env. Both can also be used as ADSR Env.

Macros:
SynthMaster 2.9:
10 total. 8 “Easy Controls” and 2 XYPads.

CPU Usage:
Using Asus ZenBook UX533FD Windows 10 64bit. Processor: 8th Gen Intel Whiskey Lake Core i7-8565U Quad Core (1.8GHz-4.6GHz, 8MB Intel Smart Cache, 15W) RAM: 16GB DDR4 2400MHz. All done in FL Studio 20.5
SynthMaster 2.9: 7%/10%

Midi Support:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Aftertouch, Pitch Bend, CC01-ModWheel, CC02-Breath Ctrl, CC04-Foot Ctrl, CC07-Volume, CC010 Pan, CC011-Expression, CC74-Brightness, and Velocity, Poly AT
Last edited by steefthtje on Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

kv331
KVRAF
5729 posts since 14 Nov, 2006 from Ankara, Turkey

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:03 pm

steefthtje wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 am
Version # used & List Price:
SynthMaster 2.9
$99 (Almost always on sale for a lot less.)

GUI (very subjective):
SynthMaster 2.9:
Ok interface. Can take some time to learn for some. Has some visual feedback but more than Massive X. Also comes with different skins.

Number of Factory Wavetables:
SynthMaster 2.9:
≈ 108 (that I counted)

3rd Party & DIY Wavetables:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Simple wavetable editor just add in your own waveforms. Does support 3rd party wav. files

Wavetable Organization:
SynthMaster2.9:
Like Serum allows folders within folder for easy organization.

Number of Wavetable Oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
4 (2 per layer x 2 Layers)

Wavetable Modulations:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Spectral (LP, HP, LS, HS, BP, BS), Bend (Bend+, Bend-, Bend+/-), Sync (Rect Window, Half Cos Window, Cos Window, Tri Window, Saw Window), Pulse (Pulse1, Pulse2) and Bit Crush. Only one can be applied of these. On top of this FM or PM and AM Can be applied to each WT Osc.

Number of additional audible Oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Each of 2 WT Osc can use 2 out 4 mods. 1st mod can be used for FM or PM (any one of 500 waveforms). 2nd Mod can be used for RM or as an extra Osc (any one of 500 waveforms) (this is great to use as a sub Osc).

Noise oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Use any of the Main Osc or Mods located after the Main Osc for Noise. Can import your own noise samples in wav. files.

Non-WT osc engines:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Basic single wave subtractive (500 single wave), Additive (Combining up to 8 Osc and choose any of 500 single waveform), Vector (Morth between 4 waveforms on a XY pad), Audio in.

Unison:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Each osc can have up to 16 voices, additionally each layer can go up to 8 voices unison.

Able to add distortion before or between filters:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Distortion option for all filters, Before filter, Inside filter, After filter, No Distortion.

Filters:
Synthmaster 2.9:
2 filters (Split, Parallel, Series)

ARP/ Sequencer:
Synthmaster 2.9:
2 Arpeggiators, 1 per layer with modes such as Up, Down, UpDown, DownUp, UpDown2, DownUp2, AsPlayed, Sequence, Chord and Arpeggiate modes. Each of up to 32 steps has its own Velocity, Note Number, Note Length, Slide and Hold parameters.

Total LFO/Mseg/Envelope Modulators:
Synthmaster 2.9:
36 (per layer: 4 ADSR Envelopes, 2X & 2Y 2D Envelopes, 2 Multistage Envelopes, 4 KeyScalers, 2 LFOs. Plus 4 Global LFOs.)

LFOs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Up to 6 LFOs. 2 Per layer plus 4 Global. For shapes choose between Sine, Tri, Sqr, Saw, Step, Glide, and Dual (morth between 2 out of 500 Osc waveforms as your LFO shapes). All LFOs come with their own Speed, Volume, Phase, Noise, Delay, Attack, Release, and Final Knobs for more control.

Envelopes:
SynthMaster 2.9:
4 ADSR Env, 2 MSEG Env, 2 2D Env.

MSEG
Synthmaster 2.9:
2 MSEG Env. 2 2D Env. Both can also be used as ADSR Env.

Macros:
SynthMaster 2.9:
10 total. 8 “Easy Controls” and 2 XYPads.

CPU Usage:
Using Asus ZenBook UX533FD Windows 10 64bit. Processor: 8th Gen Intel Whiskey Lake Core i7-8565U Quad Core (1.8GHz-4.6GHz, 8MB Intel Smart Cache, 15W) RAM: 16GB DDR4 2400MHz. All done in FL Studio 20.5
SynthMaster 2.9: 7%/10%

Midi Support:
SynthMaster 2.9:
Aftertouch, Pitch Bend, CC01-ModWheel, CC02-Breath Ctrl, CC04-Foot Ctrl, CC07-Volume, CC010 Pan, CC011-Expression, CC74-Brightness, and Velocity, Poly AT
WOW, thank you :hug:
Works at KV331 Audio
SynthMaster voted "Best VST/AU Synth of 2016" by MusicRadar readers
SynthMaster One voted "Best New Virtual Instrument of 2017" by MusicRadar readers

Trancit
KVRAF
2220 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 am

A little mistake here:
steefthtje wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 am
...
Number of Wavetable Oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
4 (2 per layer x 2 Layers)
...
Filters:
Synthmaster 2.9:
2 filters (Split, Parallel, Series)
...
Either you concentrate on
1 layer: 2 Osc + 2 Filter
or you count all:
4 Osc (2 per layer x 2 Layers) + 4 filters (2 per layer x 2 Layers)
:tu:

steefthtje
KVRer
13 posts since 28 Feb, 2019

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:30 am

Trancit wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 am
A little mistake here:
steefthtje wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 am
...
Number of Wavetable Oscs:
SynthMaster 2.9:
4 (2 per layer x 2 Layers)
...
Filters:
Synthmaster 2.9:
2 filters (Split, Parallel, Series)
...
Either you concentrate on
1 layer: 2 Osc + 2 Filter
or you count all:
4 Osc (2 per layer x 2 Layers) + 4 filters (2 per layer x 2 Layers)
:tu:
Thank you for catching my mistake! It should have been 4 Filters (2 per layer x 2 layers) we want to count every part of the synth. I've fixed it.

bsntn99
KVRer
6 posts since 30 Apr, 2013

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:53 am

I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of UVI Falcon, my goto for wavetable synthesis. It has hundreds of wavetables, a nice 3D wavetable browser view, phase distortion and FM, and 8 voice unison per oscillator. It can import wav files, tables, and even convert images into wavetables.

You are pretty much only limited with your cpu as far as how many wavetable oscillators, lfos, and envelopes you have. Plus you have a number of other oscillator types (sample, granular, analog, FM, pluck, noise, organ, drum) you can add on top. It also has scripting with a number a built in ones such as for shepard tones, great built in effects, step and arp modulators. The only thing missing here is a good wavetable editor for which I use either Serum or Halion.

I've used everything here except Icarus and nothing comes close to the amount of flexibility and features. It is pricier at $349, but can be had on sale a little over $200 and includes a $100 voucher for other UVI products. Worth checking out if you haven't heard of it.

Etienne1973
KVRist
465 posts since 8 Feb, 2013 from Switzerland

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:58 am

bsntn99 wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:53 am
I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of UVI Falcon, my goto for wavetable synthesis. ...
+1 :tu:
bsntn99 wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:53 am
... The only thing missing here is a good wavetable editor for which I use either Serum or Halion. ...
My WT Editors:

User avatar
Biome_Digital
KVRian
721 posts since 9 Jan, 2014 from Worldwide

Re: Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

Post Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:57 pm

a vote to add Phaseplant to this

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