Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

[vurt]

no doubt

don't speak...

[Hink]

no doubt

don't speak...

mmmm mm mmmmm mmmm mm...gwen are you ever gonna learn

[vurt]

[Functional]

You have not heard of Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder?

The latter is a synth pioneer, btw. He didn’t need no stinkin’ envelopes, well except the ones all his sweethearts sent him.

Wonder has an assistant. I won't argue too much with this tangent but I will say that there are probably hundreds of brilliantly capable blind people who didn't have the fortune of being recognized at the age of 11 and as such, cannot necessarily afford an assistant to work as the eyes. I think it's really cool that someone who is blind CAN do what Stevie does - all the power to him. But we can't pretend that it's just that simple even for him, 'cause it's not.

I had two instances when I worked music retail...first was in a small mom and pop chain and I work in a store in Davis sq Somerville Mass which is on the subway into Boston. We had a cs-80 in the store and this gentleman who was completely sightless would come in from the subway several days a week head to the back of my store and play with that until we sold it. The guy was a genius on it and he taught me a lot, he had no problems at all. I use to try and catch a buzz before he got there so I could enjoy the show (he would always come in at the same time, different days but always the same time).

The second was at MARs music, where I actually worked in part in the keyboard department. Another completely sightless man came in looking for a digital piano, I picked up on the fact right away that this was a learning moment for me. (he had someone with him, couldn't walk to this store or take public transportation) First he asked if we had a real pedal for sustain and not one of those footswitches, I grabbed one for him. Next we walked around the pianos, he asked me not to tell him what they were, he tried the action of the keys by playing just a few seconds then he went right to the highest key and played it a few times, tried them all then he got to the Yamaha P-80.

When he played that highest key he said "it plinks, can I get a bench please?" He then proceeded to play beautifully, the P-80 had other instruments on it and he had no issues navigating through (nor would I expect him to tbh). It was great, he bought a P-80, a sustain pedal and a bench. It truly was a learning experience for me because I used that plink to sell quite a few more, as he explained and at the time he was right, most digital pianos sounded electronic so the highest note sounded too good to be real

I haven't sadly had the fortune to meet much blind musicians in my life so I can't say much from experience, but I've read lot of similar stories. You hear the notion of how blindness essentially sharpens your other senses - I honestly don't know how much truth there is to that, but I do think that there obviously are many blind people who are very, very capable musicians, and yet you don't see or hear much about them even though technically speaking it shouldn't matter that much in many circumstances.

If you're a child and you're considered a prodigy, you will likely be "helped out" regardless of such conditions by various people. If not and you happen to develop a late interest into music, it's basically "tough luck" situation because the hoops you'd normally have to go through just aren't accessible unless you're capable of music production on your own and/or reading notes. Without that, your usual option is to get into a local band or hope that you'll eventually impress someone who is important enough.

Of course that isn't to say that it's also not perfectly fine to just have music as a hobby. Music as a form of therapy is very effective from what I've understood. So if the blind person is happy with just that, it's a lot, not just "something".

And on that note, there's probably dozens of capable DAW users who could easily assist blind people for recording & production purposes. If there was a way to connect these two, that would be amazing I'd bet. Especially these younger bedroom producers - I can say according to my own experiences that there's so much stuff I've learned because I've worked with other musicians and a composer, so it would be beneficial both ways.

Other than that though, I guess the best we can do is try and design stuff to be more accessible even for blind people - but that's usually easier said than done.

[zerocrossing]

I don't get it. Why people need to visualise envelope? Is listening not enough anymore? It's a serious question.

I'm not arguing that visual display of the envelope is a must. However, listening isn't enough anymore. Because today the tools are so complex and multi-layered. The same audio result can be obtained through multiple means.

If I have a classic analog synth... say a Prophet 5. It's easy to understand how a sound is created by listening to the result. Now take one of the various complex software synths. I can listen to the audio result and just not know how it is created. Is it samples? wavetables? VA? FM? or some combination. Is the movement in the sound from an envelope? or some oscFX? or part of the sample? and so on.

Also, specific to MX... Look at the ADSR in Hive. The sliders are basically a graphical representation. A glance shows the basic Env shape. Then look at the MX Env. It is fairly complex and so not easy and immediate to understand the shape of the Env. And unlike a classic analog synth with maybe 2 envelopes, you can have lots of them in MX. All of which greatly increases the complexity... plus you can modulate one envelope by another.

So yes... some helpful visual feedback is more important today because the synths are much more complex.

Yeah but ADSR is simple in MX and Im getting impression that for some people commenting here, having visual feedback for a basic ADSR like in MX is a must to be able to make music.
I pointed before that it's nice to have it but common, it will not stop anyone from making music. Or maybe I'm old and now without visuals people can't make music anymore?

You don't need much to make music. In Gent here we have an act that makes music with thrashcans, plastic tubes and shampoo bottles.

But visuals are a nice aid and as Pdxindy stated : with a complex synth , the signal path can be complex.
If you claim to come up with the next generation synth, but lack basic features that the original had 10 years ago. Hmmm.

Sure, you can music with it, without a doubt, but from a product design point of view, you are not scoring points with this omission. Inserting a static image that eats screen real estate instead, is pretty funny really.

Visualization of modulation isn’t necessary, of course, but it can be really helpful, especially when there’s a lot going on. I’ll often start working on a patch and then have to put it on the back burner for a while and come back to it. A visual reminder is nice especially when you’re working with more than 2 EGs and LFOs.

[teilo]

I pity the generation of synth musicians who had nothing more than this for a visualization. They must have been geniuses.

[pdxindy]

I pity the generation of synth musicians who had nothing more than this for a visualization. They must have been geniuses.

I bet they didn't have something like 8 Env's each able to modulate each other and themselves in complex ways...

I find the Scope in Hive to be very useful for visualizing such complex modulations.

[stearine]

It isn't about what's essential, but about what's useful.

That you consider some feature inessential weighs less than someone finding the same feature useful.

[pixel85]

I pity the generation of synth musicians who had nothing more than this for a visualization. They must have been geniuses.

According to rumors old modular (and Yamaha TX/DX) synths users come from the first line of Gandalf descendants. They have been using power of The Ring to subdue those monsters Only the greatest experienced a pleasure of being their students. Magic is real!

[zerocrossing]

I pity the generation of synth musicians who had nothing more than this for a visualization. They must have been geniuses.

I bet they didn't have something like 8 Env's each able to modulate each other and themselves in complex ways...

I find the Scope in Hive to be very useful for visualizing such complex modulations.

Exactly. And when they didn’t have it in synths like the DX series, they mostly just used presets and smarter people do patch design. I joke, but having all the MSEGs visible in DX7 V is da bom.

[EnGee]

I think Hive 2 runs on Linux natively. Not sure about Massive X or other NI products (even with using Wine).

I might start purchasing all u-he products including Hive 2. I have only Diva and RePro which run fine within Bitwig inside Ubuntu. I've just installed them and I'm enjoying the experience so far with all my hardware working except Maschine

[pdxindy]

I think Hive 2 runs on Linux natively. Not sure about Massive X or other NI products (even with using Wine).

I might start purchasing all u-he products including Hive 2. I have only Diva and RePro which run fine within Bitwig inside Ubuntu. I've just installed them and I'm enjoying the experience so far with all my hardware working except Maschine

The u-he synths (and plugins in general) are so well rounded. For overall refinement and plugin infrastructure they are unmatched.

They run on Linux
Have a fantastic browser
Excellent GUI's that can be skinned and resized
Lots of innovative synth functions
Support MPE, Poly AT, various midi controllers like breath etc.
Great Midi Learn support
Microtuning support
Excellent long term plugin support
Simple Serial#
Support Midi Program Change
Undo/Redo
Useful refinements like mousewheel support, double click reset, arrow keys, Etc.

[BONES]

I pity the generation of synth musicians who had nothing more than this for a visualization. They must have been geniuses.

I bet they didn't have something like 8 Env's each able to modulate each other and themselves in complex ways...

No but we had two ears to tell us very precisely what was going on. I do a lot of my sound design with my eyes closed.

I find the Scope in Hive to be very useful for visualizing such complex modulations.

I find it pretty to watch but somewhat pointless beyond that.

Exactly. And when they didn’t have it in synths like the DX series, they mostly just used presets and smarter people do patch design. I joke, but having all the MSEGs visible in DX7 V is da bom.

Completely pointless to me. The first thing I do when I fire up Go2 is change the envelope displays from graphical to knobs. Seeing them does absolutely nothing for my ability to use them. Never has and I can't imagine it ever will. I get it with very complex MSEGs but not with simple ADSR envelopes or even AHDSR or 6 point envelopes.

[AnX]

I do a lot of my sound design with my eyes closed.

i forgot to ask you, how are you getting on with that braille synth?

[EnGee]

I think Hive 2 runs on Linux natively. Not sure about Massive X or other NI products (even with using Wine).

I might start purchasing all u-he products including Hive 2. I have only Diva and RePro which run fine within Bitwig inside Ubuntu. I've just installed them and I'm enjoying the experience so far with all my hardware working except Maschine

The u-he synths (and plugins in general) are so well rounded. For overall refinement and plugin infrastructure they are unmatched.

They run on Linux
Have a fantastic browser
Excellent GUI's that can be skinned and resized
Lots of innovative synth functions
Support MPE, Poly AT, various midi controllers like breath etc.
Great Midi Learn support
Microtuning support
Excellent long term plugin support
Simple Serial#
Support Midi Program Change
Undo/Redo
Useful refinements like mousewheel support, double click reset, arrow keys, Etc.

Indeed! The performance is as good as in Windows (if not better!). I might skip all Windows in my next PC. With Bitwig/u-he combination I might not in need for anything else!

I'm resisting the strong temptation to sell my Machine/Komplete now!

From another side, I've spent yesterday some time with MX. From the positive things that I like a lot are the various sound sources for oscillators and Noise. Really impressive and make it easy to come up with the sound you want. I also liked the bright indication of the used modulator. This make it obvious immediately what modulators are engaged. Now this is what I expect normally from NI