What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
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8634 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:48 pm

TL;DR - defend your ideas, not yourself.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

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8634 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:35 am

machinesworking wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:54 pm
Meh, I would be willing to bet most electronic musicians would consider drum machines to have their own sequencers. You're probably on your own with this distinction.
Maybe if there were more that didn't but, as I explained, they pretty much had to have them back in the day. You also then end up with the dilemma about what to call something like Battery. It's too specialised to be called a synth or a sampler but if you call it a drum machine, people will have a better idea of what it is. And isn't that the point of giving things names?
Especially by the 90's when MPC's were being used as drum machines and "Music Production Centers", but only the biggest pedant would get snooty at someone for referring to it as a drum machine.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone call an MPC a drum machine and I've certainly never thought of them as such. Mind you, I don't know anyone who has one. They are things I have discussed with different people on occasion, with a view to possibly using them to sequence hardware synths, so maybe the drum aspect just never came up?
all of them are much better than what I used as a kid, and I should be grateful.
For me, after Orion I'd say that Trinity's sequencer is the next best I've used. The 01R/W's was OK but the screen was just a bit too small to make it really usable. I think in time I'll probably get to thinking that Cubase is better than Trinity but I don't yet know it well enough.
In many ways Maschine is more advanced, but it's core song mode is weak.
For you, not for everyone. Once we get an arrangement down, we don't change it much or often. If it is going to be a single we might do a cut-down radio edit and we might shorten it for our live set but that's about all. The whole idea of doing it like a DJ set is anathema to what we do. We're a rock band and people (hopefully) come to our shows to hear our songs. We are not there to keep the dancefloor packed, we're there to present our songs in a familiar, digestible way for our audience. Having done a lot of DJing over the years, the two things are fundamentally different, requiring very different approaches. I see Live and Bitwig as DJ tools, Maschine is much more a tool for rock bands.
... the vocalist wants to try out ideas etc. In general I find Clip and Session style programs to be useful during that phase.
That should be trivial in any sequencer, you set loop points and let it loop the bit you want to riff on. That's normally what I do when I'm writing lyrics. It works as well in Cubase as it does in Orion - just a simple click+drag.
It's almost like the way Song Mode works in a Korg Trinity, where you can copy a pattern or you can "Place" it. When you Place it, it becomes a unique copy and you can change it without it changing all the other copies. Cubase does the same sort of thing, depending on the way you duplicate a clip it can either remain linked, so changing the original changes all of them, or it can be a standalone copy you can edit individually. Great for doing drum fills and stuff.
That's been around for years in Cubase and Logic, it's a cool feature for sure. It's not at all like Clips and Session view in Live, Bitwig though.
But you can use it in the same way and there is no need to set it up. What I dislike about clip view is that it is a separate process, whereas setting loop points in the arrangement window requires a lot less effort. I had a good look at it in Bitwig and I just couldn't understand why I'd bother with it. I watched the video tutorials and thought it would be really good but, in reality, the only use I could even think of for it was doing arrangements on the fly, DJ style. For anything else it seemed like more hassle than it was worth.
Dongles live though, I would rather use something else live, I have an iLok and an eLicenser but I print that stuff to audio.
I already have 7 or 8 USB devices plugged into my PC, what's one more?
In fact to me that's a huge reason to use Bitwig or Live (Or Reaper for that matter. ) in a live situation for backing tracks and VSTi hosting, because both of them are fully unlocked for everything except saving, as demos. You could lose your whole laptop, and if you had a cloud host with a copy of your set load it into a replacement laptop without having to even authorize the DAW. etc.
That's also the advantage of a dongle, because whatever machine the dongle is plugged into is authorised instantly. I can flick between my old and new laptop any time I like, I just have to plug the dongle into the one I want to use. But, honestly, I reckon the chances of the venue burning to the ground would be higher than those of your laptop failing.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

xalama qo
KVRian
1176 posts since 7 Jun, 2007

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:39 am

I'd like to see something which competes in the Reason paradigm. Modular studio/playground with a visual overview of the project...not necessarily slavishly rack-based, but with a clear signal flow. Bundled high-quality basic synths, VST host, and VST instrument and effect ability for use in other DAWs (state saved in other DAW project too). Support for multiple timelines at different tempos and/or time signatures simultaneously, nested timelines. Midi clip presets with embedded VST instrument (which don't crash if the instrument has moved from your VST folder).
Audio tracks playable by midi pitch input by default, with playable start and end points definable on each track. Essentially each audio track is both linear and a sampler simultaneously.
Perhaps a paid add-on option which opens up a modular instrument building environment which can then spawn an RE-type shop of 3rd party/community instruments and utilities.

Basically a mashup of EnergyXT, Reason, and Bitwig, but kept fast and minimal, like EnergyXT.
Hopefully some super-dev will read this :D

chk071
KVRAF
21522 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:46 am

I think this threads needs more ultra hardcore mega multi quotes.

xalama qo
KVRian
1176 posts since 7 Jun, 2007

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:48 am

Start your own thread for that!!! :)

Noumena
KVRist
94 posts since 4 May, 2019

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:21 am

bloviate: talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.

Fwiw I didn't rage at anyone because they disagreed, simply because there were numerous responses to something that I posted that disagreed with something that I literally didn't say, and at length.

I've been on KVR since it was a few months old... 2000 or 2001, can't remember. I periodically forget why I quit and rejoin. And then I am reminded.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:58 am

xalama qo wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:39 am
Basically a mashup of EnergyXT, Reason, and Bitwig, but kept fast and minimal, like EnergyXT.
Hopefully some super-dev will read this :D
Interesting, for the most part my thoughts are that it would be great if one DAW just decided to abandon all reason and spent twice the amount of money and time as the rest on developing their DAW into a real powerhouse. I think a lot of people had that idea with Logic since Apple has endless pockets, but like any major company Apple has it's own priorities. It's not that Logic isn't ridiculously great and powerful, it's that it's rough edges from 2008 when I last used it are still there. You still cannot assign a MIDI input port to a soft synth or really anything that isn't a piece of hardware with it's own keys. I think more than anything else it just bugs me that a flaw in the core of the design of the DAW is left alone. This gets back to things like Maschine and NI not putting in more than one time signature as an option with Maschine when they built it. DP doesn't constrain MIDI by note ranges like any other DAW I've used, so split keyboards on your controller etc have to come from the actual hardware. Live doesn't do SysEx or NRPN, unless you consider having to build a device specific plug in in Max's high level object oriented programming environment...

Essentially I would rather all the basics be there, but I really haven't found a DAW that doesn't arbitrarily miss something.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:08 am

Noumena wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:21 am
bloviate: talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.

Fwiw I didn't rage at anyone because they disagreed, simply because there were numerous responses to something that I posted that disagreed with something that I literally didn't say, and at length.

I've been on KVR since it was a few months old... 2000 or 2001, can't remember. I periodically forget why I quit and rejoin. And then I am reminded.
Again, this place isn't for you if you can't handle feedback on your ideas without feeling personally attacked.

You're also doing a good job of covert ad hominem there, that's a big no no on most forums. With Bones you went full ad hominem, this is why I think you have issues. You didn't as much address the "misunderstanding" as you addressed the person who "misunderstood" you and attacked their personality. Nobody misunderstood you, in fact if you could calm yourself down you would have noticed that all I did was state what parts of Bitwig might bring some of us down. I didn't deny your post at all. If you can't handle that you should sign out again.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
8634 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:42 pm

Noumena wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:21 am
bloviate: talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.
Yes, I didn't need to look it up, I have a project called "Bloviating Monstrosity". Thing is, it is your comments that are "empty" in the context of the thread. They are completely irrelevant to it and seem designed to do nothing but salve your ego.

Like I said, defend your ideas, not yourself. You, as an individual, aren't the point. Trust me, nobody comes here to find out what you and I are doing. Music Cafe aside, people come here to gain and/or share knowledge about making music. So stop taking everything personally and instead concentrate on your ideas. If you don't express them adequately the first time, clarify in a later post. It's not hard.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

koolkeys
KVRAF
16080 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:52 pm

Sooooooo.......Reaper still sucks?

Wait, am I in the right place? What's this thread about again?

Brent
My host is better than your host

reggie1979
KVRian
1382 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:17 pm

Reaper is the stank of the universe and should be shot, and then shoot it again!

Or alternatively, use what works for you and enjoy :hihi:

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
8634 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:30 pm

You know, the closest I've got to Reaper is reading what people here have to say about it and even though people whose opinions I respect sing its praises, there has never been a time when I was even slightly interested in it. It's design by committee ethic, where the dev adds every little feature anyone asks for, completely put me off.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

reggie1979
KVRian
1382 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:47 pm

I was joking :oops:

Use what works for you. A few years ago DAW's were STAGNATE and buggy. They've come so far you can now pick and choose as you like :)

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:24 pm

BONES wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:30 pm
You know, the closest I've got to Reaper is reading what people here have to say about it and even though people whose opinions I respect sing its praises, there has never been a time when I was even slightly interested in it. It's design by committee ethic, where the dev adds every little feature anyone asks for, completely put me off.
I hear you on that, I put off really looking into Reaper for years. I spent a lot of time last year going over it, and it's pretty dammed cool. It's also only cool if you take the time to pretty much iron out every aspect of the program to UX standards that you feel comfortable with because out of the box it's one of the most haphazardly put together DAWs I've used, with the biggest learning curve.
Beyond that once you set it up the way you like to work it's fantastic. Besides comping, comping sucks in it, but totally in contradiction to what your thoughts are on how it's developed, the end users on forums will vehemently defend the comping claiming it's more than adequate. The CC automation in the MIDI editor is a pain in the ass as well, only bars, no lines etc.

Oh, and it's ugly, just plain and unattractive to look at no matter how skinable it is. It's not at all a #1 priority, but DP, Logic and Pro Tools are all lovely, easy on the eyes in almost any lighting situation. Reapers floating plug in selector that's the default plug in window when you click on FX in a track is a huge wash of pure white Excel spreadsheet on any and all skins.

All that said, it's more CPU friendly than any other DAW, and Möss makes a fantastic control surface script for it that delivers it beyond pretty much anything else out there. I'm more than likely switching to it for the next albums worth of songs.

Oh, and you know that Cubase is the other DAW out there that continually chases new features right? I'm not put off by that, but it you are, you chose the wrong DAW for sure. Cubase is the only DAW I know of that has more features than Reaper.
Last edited by machinesworking on Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:26 pm

reggie1979 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:47 pm
I was joking :oops:

Use what works for you. A few years ago DAW's were STAGNATE and buggy. They've come so far you can now pick and choose as you like :)
This is so true. Everything is so much more stable these days, (except Reason, but only because Reason before plug ins, was bullet proof).

Cubase is a great example actually, I never got near it years ago without watching it crash on friends, and that's not the case anymore.

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