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metaside wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:53 pm
starflakeprj wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:36 pm I see a certain similarity with people using Linux wanting all software ported to Linux, when the desktop market of Linux is still around 2%.
Yeah, but can you do anything revolutionary with a Linux port of a Win program that you can't do with the Win version? Investing in MPE is investing in expressiveness in electronic music.
I guess you have a point. So which is MPE keybard has the most bang for the buck? If I want to check one out.
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

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metaside wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:53 pm
starflakeprj wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:36 pm I see a certain similarity with people using Linux wanting all software ported to Linux, when the desktop market of Linux is still around 2%.
Yeah, but can you do anything revolutionary with a Linux port of a Win program that you can't do with the Win version? Investing in MPE is investing in expressiveness in electronic music.
Yeah, use the program without having to install Windows. The analogy is quite OK to me

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starflakeprj wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:01 pm So which is MPE keybard has the most bang for the buck? If I want to check one out.
I haven't tried all, so take my comment with a grain of salt...
But what I tried so far:
- LinnStrument (I own a small one and absolutely love it): my fav, more suited if you are used to or like a guitar-like setup instead of a piano-like keyboard, but not the cheapest of the current options
- Seaboard (a friend has two Seaboard blocks which are great to play, too): more suited if you are used to a piano and want to stick to that pattern, Seaboard block is one of the cheapest MPE controllers rn I think. Very small, but still absolutely usable if you are ok with the size limitations. I would say the Seaboard block is probably the best bang-for-buck right now, especially if you can get one of those deals they have sometimes where they bundle the Seaboard block with MPE synths such as Equator.

What I can gather about other controllers:
- Joué - looks like a nice comparatively cheap alternative, a bit like a small LinnStrument
- Continuum - probably awesome, but really expensive, but the new ContinuuMini version is a bit cheaper
- Eigenharp might be a good alternative if you like the design
- KMI K-Board 4 - looks good - I have a KMI QuNeo, which is a kinda expressive controller but not MPE, and can say that that thing is extremely flexible and seems indestructible
- Soundplane - looks impressive, but I think they only produce a few of those and no idea how much it would cost

Best to try it out yourself somewhere, since stuff like the surface of an expressive controller can really affect what you think about the controller and people have very different preferences in this regard. Some hate the Seaboard surface, others love it, for instance.
Some music with visuals and mixed tutorials related to game dev and sound design: https://www.youtube.com/@MetasideOfficial

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sacer wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:27 pm
fmr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:57 am
Markus Krause wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:06 pm We have drastically improved our update-policy completely since two years.
We released a large number of free updates and even free upgrades (Gladiator3) with a massive number of new features. You can validate this for yourself if you visit this website and click on 'what's new'.
https://www.tone2.com/download.html
This is true. I was somehow pissed with the update policy of Tone 2 until the last couple of years, but they certainly improved in customer support and free upgrades/updates recently.

That said, I also think that a price of $50 is more in line to what has been seen in the market than a price of $70 or more. This may seem like peanuts, but sometimes is a frotier between having a successful upgrade or not.
+1 there have been a lot of free updates with a lot of features and enhanced sound quality. I think also an update price like xils labs or u-he do offer, make a bether costumer loyality. If you compare all the free U-He Updates, for Diva etc and the paid Hive 2 for $20 or Zebra 3 for $30 and the xils lab stuff for $30 ....

So I think a lower update price can reach more in overall
Soll er seine Software verschenken oder was? Glaubst Du nicht das er nicht nur von der Hand in den Mund leben kann? Dieses andauernde Gejammer wird so langsam peinlich.
Owner of the FB site of Audioterm

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And most of us are English speaking, so if you want to write in German, please do so in a PM..
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

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metaside wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:24 pm
starflakeprj wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:01 pm So which is MPE keybard has the most bang for the buck? If I want to check one out.
I haven't tried all, so take my comment with a grain of salt...
But what I tried so far:
- LinnStrument (I own a small one and absolutely love it): my fav, more suited if you are used to or like a guitar-like setup instead of a piano-like keyboard, but not the cheapest of the current options
- Seaboard (a friend has two Seaboard blocks which are great to play, too): more suited if you are used to a piano and want to stick to that pattern, Seaboard block is one of the cheapest MPE controllers rn I think. Very small, but still absolutely usable if you are ok with the size limitations. I would say the Seaboard block is probably the best bang-for-buck right now, especially if you can get one of those deals they have sometimes where they bundle the Seaboard block with MPE synths such as Equator.

What I can gather about other controllers:
- Joué - looks like a nice comparatively cheap alternative, a bit like a small LinnStrument
- Continuum - probably awesome, but really expensive, but the new ContinuuMini version is a bit cheaper
- Eigenharp might be a good alternative if you like the design
- KMI K-Board 4 - looks good - I have a KMI QuNeo, which is a kinda expressive controller but not MPE, and can say that that thing is extremely flexible and seems indestructible
- Soundplane - looks impressive, but I think they only produce a few of those and no idea how much it would cost

Best to try it out yourself somewhere, since stuff like the surface of an expressive controller can really affect what you think about the controller and people have very different preferences in this regard. Some hate the Seaboard surface, others love it, for instance.
Thanks..I've seen Jordan Rudess using the Continuum, and I know LinnStrument and Seaboard from before as well. I guess those three are the most famous ones? Is an MPE enabled controller mostly for playing live, or are the use cases for non-keyboard players only using the keyboard for trying out chords an such?
Last edited by starflakeprj on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

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PietW. wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:35 pm
sacer wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:27 pm
fmr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:57 am
Markus Krause wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:06 pm We have drastically improved our update-policy completely since two years.
We released a large number of free updates and even free upgrades (Gladiator3) with a massive number of new features. You can validate this for yourself if you visit this website and click on 'what's new'.
https://www.tone2.com/download.html
This is true. I was somehow pissed with the update policy of Tone 2 until the last couple of years, but they certainly improved in customer support and free upgrades/updates recently.

That said, I also think that a price of $50 is more in line to what has been seen in the market than a price of $70 or more. This may seem like peanuts, but sometimes is a frotier between having a successful upgrade or not.
+1 there have been a lot of free updates with a lot of features and enhanced sound quality. I think also an update price like xils labs or u-he do offer, make a bether costumer loyality. If you compare all the free U-He Updates, for Diva etc and the paid Hive 2 for $20 or Zebra 3 for $30 and the xils lab stuff for $30 ....

So I think a lower update price can reach more in overall
Soll er seine Software verschenken oder was? Glaubst Du nicht das er nicht nur von der Hand in den Mund leben kann? Dieses andauernde Gejammer wird so langsam peinlich.
:hihi:

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metaside wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:24 pm ...
Best to try it out yourself somewhere, since stuff like the surface of an expressive controller can really affect what you think about the controller and people have very different preferences in this regard. Some hate the Seaboard surface, others love it, for instance.
Pretty much my experience with the Seaboard.
I understand pretty well that some people may have lot of fun using it and that they're getting great results out of it.
I personally really disliked playing it.

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This is a pretty cheap and very portable way in to the MPE World.

https://sensel.com/pages/the-sensel-morph
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live+PUSH 3 Standalone, Reason, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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I was about to write that i wished those controllers wouldn't look so alien. But then i saw that it can "morph" to a real looking keyboard as well. :tu:

Every one of them is too expensive though.

And, sorry, but... designs like these...

Image

I'm not really very demanding when it comes to look, but... does it have to look like a block cast of crude oil?

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For me the main problem with MPE is that people playing it seem to believe that expressivness means to put a lot of vibrato on every note they play by shaking their fingers wildly on the seaboard. The same counts for continuously sliding notes up and down, it just sounds overambitious and fake to me, nothing I would want in my music.

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The main issue regarding the GUI is that the lighting is all wrong, both on the knobs and on the panelling. There is light directing from the top right to bottom left with a red knob all reflective and the other red one right next to it that isn't. The same light is partly illuminating the top right filter panel but either side are in shadow, OSC3 scope is in complete darkness yet OSC 1 and OSC2 is more illuminated ? The lower half is more illuminated than the top, but all the knob shadows are going directly down when they would be directly going diagonally to the left side of the GUI. The lighting on the knobs themselves are all over the place also in regard to the marking strokes on each one.

It's pretty much a lighting nightmare, and I would suggest you that remove all the lighting if it's been created with a 3D program and stick to one soft, dimly lit key light (about 80% white) directly from above at the centre and at an angle that illuminates everything evenly whilst providing the the minimal of shadow on the knobs and that of the main panel of GUI itself. If the panel and the displays are created in Photoshop or another image editing program make sure the the gradients are set to 90 degree's to match the lighting of that of the knobs you have rendered out in the 3D application you are using. Setting the bank of the light on the line at the 12 o'clock position for any gradients you use on the panel and displays provides the uniform and natural balance that's needed for comfortable viewing.

An alternative approach to creating knobs is to create them with no shadow and instead present them as either a flat or concave style with a uniform black central circle to grey gradient to simulate the depth and shadow effect, you can do this in the 3D application or simply in photoshop as a series of knobs. Creating the illusion of depth and shadow is easier in an image editing program. If you are planning to create an animation of the instrument in a 3D environment, then that will require more care and understanding of how to create that.

Also to add that, digital displays do not show any shadowing when illuminated from external sources, what you may get is specular lighting highlights.

Colour wise, there's poor contrast, pale blue on a pale grey background in regard to the displays....doesn't work well.
Last edited by THE INTRANCER on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:11 pm For me the main problem with MPE is that people playing it seem to believe that expressivness means to put a lot of vibrato on every note they play by shaking their fingers wildly on the seaboard. The same counts for continuously sliding notes up and down, it just sounds overambitious and fake to me, nothing I would want in my music.
That's not a problem with MPE, but a matter of taste and skills. You can literally do any expressive playing you like with MPE. Just put some time in, like you would do with any real instrument. It needs more practise than a trigger-button thing for sure ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnN2xki-tLs

starflakeprj wrote:Is an MPE enabled controller mostly for playing live, or are the use cases for non-keyboard players only using the keyboard for trying out chords an such?
It depends. If you are really bad with playing and don't enjoy playing an instrument expressively at all, I guess it might end up as something only used to try out chords, but I don't see why it should. As I wrote above, MPE controllers bridge the worlds of digital sound design and expressive playing. What you do with these wonderful opportunities is completely up to you.


@nordickvr: Maybe give the LinnStrument or some other controller a try! They are all very different imho.
Some music with visuals and mixed tutorials related to game dev and sound design: https://www.youtube.com/@MetasideOfficial

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metaside wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:31 pm
Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:11 pm For me the main problem with MPE is that people playing it seem to believe that expressivness means to put a lot of vibrato on every note they play by shaking their fingers wildly on the seaboard. The same counts for continuously sliding notes up and down, it just sounds overambitious and fake to me, nothing I would want in my music.
That's not a problem with MPE, but a matter of taste and skills. You can literally do any expressive playing you like with MPE. Just put some time in, like you would do with any real instrument. It needs more practise than a trigger-button thing for sure ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnN2xki-tLs

starflakeprj wrote:Is an MPE enabled controller mostly for playing live, or are the use cases for non-keyboard players only using the keyboard for trying out chords an such?
It depends. If you are really bad with playing and don't enjoy playing an instrument expressively at all, I guess it might end up as something only used to try out chords, but I don't see why it should. As I wrote above, MPE controllers bridge the worlds of digital sound design and expressive playing. What you do with these wonderful opportunities is completely up to you.


@nordickvr: Maybe give the LinnStrument or some other controller a try! They are all very different imho.
Well, I play the saxophone, have some cello skills and have worked with numerous wind, brass and string soloists as well as orchestral musicians, none of the MPE players I have encountered have the skills nor the taste to make it sound “real“, so for me a keyboard with 88 keys, aftertouch, pitchbend and a modulation wheel totally suffices.

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Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:36 pm so for me a keyboard with 88 keys, aftertouch, pitchbend and a modulation wheel totally suffices.
That's great for you if you are happy with that!
Some music with visuals and mixed tutorials related to game dev and sound design: https://www.youtube.com/@MetasideOfficial

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