What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

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BONES
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8637 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:24 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:26 am
BONES wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:22 pm
I last tried FL at v19
There's no FL v19 :D They went straight from v12 to v20 due to 20th anniversary :)
Must have been 12, then. It was the one before the current version. I watched a video that got me interested in it about three years ago now, I think.
JunSev wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:50 am
why many people feel comfortable using it (including myself) then, from hobbyists to big edm figures and more ext?...
I imagine its because they don't know any better, in that they didn't spend 10 or 15 years working and recording in real studios before Fruityloops existed, maybe? Then again, Tom Ellard from Severed Heads really likes it and he has way more experience in real studios than I do. But he also enjoys the process a lot more than I do. I just want to get shit done in the simplest, fastest way possible.
certainly you could say that it takes some time to learn if you're coming from other daw or that you need to learn some stuffs, but terrible...
Well, having been a Fruityloops beta tester for a year or two, I didn't have any trouble learning it at all, I just never manged to finish anything in all that time. It started life as a drum machine and was developed by a guy with zero musical knowledge or experience. Given that, it's amazing how good it is but unsurprising that it doesn't work in a way every musician will find comfortable.
You see what I mean when I said you tend to talk too much nonsense and too loud with baseless arguments sometimes, with all respect.
You see how you open your mouth with absolutely no idea of the real facts of the matter at hand? The key phrase that should have alerted you was "I last tried FL", as opposed to "the only time I tried FL".
It was the same when you were implying that wavetable synthesis was useless.
When did I ever imply that? It's as useful as most other ways of doing it, but no more so. I think I have a very compelling argument in favour of that opinion, too, which I have explained several times already.
I'm sorry but I had to again.
Yes, because you're a sad little man who can't bear to have his feelings hurt or his beliefs challenged, no matter how compelling the evidence. It's pathetic.
JunSev wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:34 pm
This is a pure example of someone with an agenda and manipulative. Bashing FL studio all time with multiple accounts in multiple threads were FL studio is mentioned, this has gone too far.
No, it was an example of someone with an opinion that's different to yours. Given his responses and yours, I'd suggest his opinion is far more likely to be valid than yours. If someone says something you disagree with, provide some evidence that shows them to be in error, don't just accuse them of bias. It's pathetic, which seems to be the theme of tonight's posts.

Mind you, it's nowhere near as pathetic as England's batting was tonight, so it's all relative.
machinesworking wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:52 pm
I don't get the hate some have for tools that other people love, that other people spent time developing etc.??
The only hate I have seen here has been directed ant people who dare to offer an opinion that differs from someone else. The negative posts themselves have been completely reasonable in their critique but no, no, no, no, no - if you disagree you have to have some kind of evil agenda. Again, it's pathetic.
It's mental. I'm absolutely positive within a month I could use any DAW out there and get done at least 90% of what I do musically, we're talking about minor gripes, inconveniences and preference here, that's all.
And that has been pretty much the tone fro those who aren't fans of FL Studio. So where, exactly, is the problem?
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telecode
KVRian
1014 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:45 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:24 am
antic604 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:26 am
BONES wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:22 pm
I last tried FL at v19
There's no FL v19 :D They went straight from v12 to v20 due to 20th anniversary :)
Must have been 12, then. It was the one before the current version. I watched a video that got me interested in it about three years ago now, I think.
JunSev wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:50 am
why many people feel comfortable using it (including myself) then, from hobbyists to big edm figures and more ext?...
I imagine its because they don't know any better, in that they didn't spend 10 or 15 years working and recording in real studios before Fruityloops existed, maybe? Then again, Tom Ellard from Severed Heads really likes it and he has way more experience in real studios than I do. But he also enjoys the process a lot more than I do. I just want to get shit done in the simplest, fastest way possible.
certainly you could say that it takes some time to learn if you're coming from other daw or that you need to learn some stuffs, but terrible...
Well, having been a Fruityloops beta tester for a year or two, I didn't have any trouble learning it at all, I just never manged to finish anything in all that time. It started life as a drum machine and was developed by a guy with zero musical knowledge or experience. Given that, it's amazing how good it is but unsurprising that it doesn't work in a way every musician will find comfortable.
You see what I mean when I said you tend to talk too much nonsense and too loud with baseless arguments sometimes, with all respect.
You see how you open your mouth with absolutely no idea of the real facts of the matter at hand? The key phrase that should have alerted you was "I last tried FL", as opposed to "the only time I tried FL".
It was the same when you were implying that wavetable synthesis was useless.
When did I ever imply that? It's as useful as most other ways of doing it, but no more so. I think I have a very compelling argument in favour of that opinion, too, which I have explained several times already.
I'm sorry but I had to again.
Yes, because you're a sad little man who can't bear to have his feelings hurt or his beliefs challenged, no matter how compelling the evidence. It's pathetic.
JunSev wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:34 pm
This is a pure example of someone with an agenda and manipulative. Bashing FL studio all time with multiple accounts in multiple threads were FL studio is mentioned, this has gone too far.
No, it was an example of someone with an opinion that's different to yours. Given his responses and yours, I'd suggest his opinion is far more likely to be valid than yours. If someone says something you disagree with, provide some evidence that shows them to be in error, don't just accuse them of bias. It's pathetic, which seems to be the theme of tonight's posts.

Mind you, it's nowhere near as pathetic as England's batting was tonight, so it's all relative.
machinesworking wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:52 pm
I don't get the hate some have for tools that other people love, that other people spent time developing etc.??
The only hate I have seen here has been directed ant people who dare to offer an opinion that differs from someone else. The negative posts themselves have been completely reasonable in their critique but no, no, no, no, no - if you disagree you have to have some kind of evil agenda. Again, it's pathetic.
It's mental. I'm absolutely positive within a month I could use any DAW out there and get done at least 90% of what I do musically, we're talking about minor gripes, inconveniences and preference here, that's all.
And that has been pretty much the tone fro those who aren't fans of FL Studio. So where, exactly, is the problem?
I think maybe your obstacle is that you stuck in the linear DAW mentality. This is my obstacle as well. But be aware that a lot of very good and established artists moved to some of these EDMy type loop based DAW. Artists that came from Pro Tools and what not . Imogen Heap going to Ableton comes to mind. I am sure she use other tools. There are some other artists as well .

My impression is, they are using it because of the live performance features and functionality which things like Cubase or Logic can't do as well.

There may also be an element of the type of music they make. Lots of effects, samples and loops interspersed and packaged into a 4 minute pop song format.

The linear DAW seem more geared for studio and home bedroom producer recording. The loop based ones can be used in either way.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
50017 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:50 am

except he was orion based for years, which only had linear midi recording enabled later on.

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KVRAF
3136 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:05 am

vurt wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:50 am
except he was orion based for years
Which star system? Betelgeuse? Rigel?

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:14 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:24 am
machinesworking wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:52 pm
I don't get the hate some have for tools that other people love, that other people spent time developing etc.??
The only hate I have seen here has been directed ant people who dare to offer an opinion that differs from someone else. The negative posts themselves have been completely reasonable in their critique but no, no, no, no, no - if you disagree you have to have some kind of evil agenda. Again, it's pathetic.
It's mental. I'm absolutely positive within a month I could use any DAW out there and get done at least 90% of what I do musically, we're talking about minor gripes, inconveniences and preference here, that's all.
And that has been pretty much the tone fro those who aren't fans of FL Studio. So where, exactly, is the problem?
The only way you can have this opinion is to ignore babysitter entirely.

Plus gems like this, you're not exactly stating why the workflow bothers you, or what missing feature should be there, or how many extra clicks to do something in FL is a PITA, it's just "bad different".
BONES wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:54 am
There is good different and bad different and FL is definitely bad different. OTOH, Orion also has a different workflow but anyone could work it out in 5 minutes flat because it is easy and intuitive. That's good different.
And not to be a dick here, but if Orion was so great, why did it go under? IMO the workflow worked for you, but just like in arguments there are logical fallacies, humans do this all the time with learning, the way you learned something is the best way to do it etc. Thrown into the bigger audience for the product, the wrinkles come out.
I'm on Digital Performer, it's IMO very likely to go the way of Orion, it has features that no other DAW has, I think they're invaluable, but I get that it also has weak points, like most DAWs.

I get how you argue your point, a lot of people I know argue from a soldiers point of view, they align themselves with a brand and defend their positions, but to say you're giving well thought out rational opinions on FL in this thread would be a lie, it's all emotion and generalized statements. I don't use FL, I never have, but I get nothing from statements like "bad different", all I get is you don't like thing, thing make you not like!

Here's an example, I use Live, but Live ticks me off with it's lack of key commands and reliance on you the user to mouse around for things that other DAWs allow you to use a single key click for like the MIDI editor, it's always click and drag to extend it to full screen. I think the quantize options are severely limited as well, and again the amount of clicks it takes to change quantize settings is more than other DAWs.

I could do this with any DAW I've used, dissect the workflow and what exactly I though wasn't as well thought out as other DAWs. So when I hear people just knock a DAW for not being developed by a musician, Bad different etc. I just think hater. :shrug:

reggie1979
KVRian
1385 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:26 am

A long time ago I had live and push. Hasn't that improved a bunch with doing key commands and such?

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BONES
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8637 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:52 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:14 am
Plus gems like this, you're not exactly stating why the workflow bothers you, or what missing feature should be there, or how many extra clicks to do something in FL is a PITA, it's just "bad different".
Well, I'd say the things I don't like about FL Studio are mostly the things I don't like about Cubase either - the monolithic UI that is incapable of giving you any sort of useful overview of your project, except that in FLS it is even messier than in Cubase, with lots of overlapping windows that quickly bury things you want to get at.

I am far too used to Orion, where I get to decide what goes where and how much prominence it gets. In an Orion project I can see every channel in the mixer fully, EQ plus insert and send effects. At the same time I can see every individual instrument's toolbar, which means I can do stuff like changing a pattern while tweaking the mixer without having to open or close any windows. I can also see the Playlist (arrangement) in full, all at the same time. That means anything I want to do is never more than a single mouse-click away and more often than not requires no mouse clicks at all to get at.

Compared to that, every other host application is a total shitfight and if Orion was still in development I wouldn't even think of looking at anything else. Every DAW is awful by comparison so after trying out a few different options, we decided that Cubase was the least awful option for us. But, honestly, if we weren't doing a bit of collaboration with other people who use Cubase and if Cubase hadn't been on sale for half price (notice how often that comes up in my posts), I'd still be very happy continuing to use Orion. Orion is as close to perfect as any host is likely to get but it is too long out of development now and there are a few newer things we can't use with it, like the Modal app for my Skulpt and Craft 2.0 (which are VST3 only).
And not to be a dick here, but if Orion was so great, why did it go under?
Mostly because people are idiots incapable of rational thought. They prioritise features over sound quality and are more interested in the process than the results. The professional market, who might actually have seen the advantages of it, would never have been exposed to it. I also think that Rich is probably much better at making this stuff than he is at marketing it so it stopped getting much exposure a long time ago. e.g. If you look at Sound On Sound's website, their latest Orion review is for version 3, way back in 2003. The next 5 versions went by under the radar.
IMO the workflow worked for you, but just like in arguments there are logical fallacies, humans do this all the time with learning, the way you learned something is the best way to do it etc.
There is a problem with your logic right here, in that you can't assume the way someone first learns something becomes the immutable truth for them. The reality is that most of us learn and grow throughout our lives and the way I was working on our latest album last year in Orion bares very little resemblance to the way I was working when we did our fist album on it. Things evolve and you can't stand still and hope to remain relevant.
Thrown into the bigger audience for the product, the wrinkles come out.
And therein lies the problem - sheeple want every product to be all things so what we end up with are massive applications full to the brim with compromises in the attempt to please everyone. So, ultimately, you can use whichever one you choose and it will get the job done. You just have to choose which steaming pile of compromises is the least offensive to your sensibilities. In the race to be all things to all people, there are no longer any of them that can claim to be the perfect solution for everyone. Even Reason has ceased to be different in any meaningful way, just to chase market share. That attitude is why I don't like Reaper and it's kind of wrecked all the other hosts, too. Rich never tried to play that game, he tried to remain true to his original vision and focused on sound quality and simplicity.
I'm on Digital Performer, it's IMO very likely to go the way of Orion, it has features that no other DAW has, I think they're invaluable, but I get that it also has weak points, like most DAWs.
I don't think about it that way. I'm am far less interested in features than workflow. I want to get stuff done and the easier it is, the more productive I can be. Complicating things just to broaden your appeal is a failure for me. I only want to add complexity as it is needed, I don't want to have to deal with it from the start. The simplest example of that is if I want to demo a new synth. In Orion I can just load the instrument, press CTRL+R to create a random pattern and press play to hear it. If I want to do that in Cubase I have to drag the instrument across into the whatever it is window to create a new track, then I have to drag out a clip, then drag out a playback area so that it loops, then I have to double-click the clip to open it in the piano roll and manually create a pattern. Only after I've done all that can I press play and start previewing patches. Who can be arsed doing all that just to discover something is rubbish?
I get how you argue your point, a lot of people I know argue from a soldiers point of view, they align themselves with a brand and defend their positions, but to say you're giving well thought out rational opinions on FL in this thread would be a lie, it's all emotion and generalized statements.
Bullshit. There is no emotion. If there was, I would never have even bothered trying out FL 12 because think Gol is a dickhead and Imageline and I had a massive falling out many years ago. But that is completely irrelevant to my assessment of the application. If anything, it would make me feel good to think that these guys who don't like me at all are making a product that helps me get my work done. That would really piss them off, I reckon.
I don't use FL, I never have, but I get nothing from statements like "bad different", all I get is you don't like thing, thing make you not like!
Which is all anyone should be able to get and all I wanted to convey. IN the context of the discussion, there was ample evidence from others as to its shortcomings, I saw no need to reiterate the same things.
Here's an example, I use Live, but Live ticks me off with it's lack of key commands and reliance on you the user to mouse around for things that other DAWs allow you to use a single key click for like the MIDI editor, it's always click and drag to extend it to full screen.
Whereas I see the need to rely on hotkeys as a failure of the UI design. If I could get all my work done without a computer keyboard at all, I'd be very happy. For me the mouse is the perfect tool.
I think the quantize options are severely limited as well, and again the amount of clicks it takes to change quantize settings is more than other DAWs.
Whereas I've never used quantise on anything since i moved to working ITB. If I need to, I move notes around manually, allowing them to snap to the grid. But mostly I create patterns with my mouse in the piano roll.
I could do this with any DAW I've used, dissect the workflow and what exactly I though wasn't as well thought out as other DAWs. So when I hear people just knock a DAW for not being developed by a musician, Bad different etc. I just think hater. :shrug:
Then you lack imagination and/or the ability to read things in context.
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BONES
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8637 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:52 pm

telecode wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:45 am
I think maybe your obstacle is that you stuck in the linear DAW mentality.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Until just a few months ago I had never worked in any linear software sequencer. Even in hardware, it was my earliest MIDI sequencers, a Yamaha QX-7 and a Korg SQD-1, that provided my only experience of linear sequencing and they were both horrible, horrible things that I would never want to go back to. On those things you only had two MIDI tracks - you would record on one track then, when you were happy, you'd bounce it down to the other track. Then you change MIDI channels and repeat until you had a whole arrangement bounced down onto the second track. No ability to go back and edit or change anything once it had been bounced onto the second track. It was a nightmare.
But be aware that a lot of very good and established artists moved to some of these EDMy type loop based DAW. Artists that came from Pro Tools and what not . Imogen Heap going to Ableton comes to mind. I am sure she use other tools. There are some other artists as well .
Who cares what someone else is doing? Especially someone like Imogen Heap, who I can assure you I have never heard so much as a single note from a single song from in my life. Is it a person or a band? Killing Joke are my all-time favourite band but I have less than no idea how they work and no interest in finding out because I think they are a bunch of lunatics who have absolutely nothing of value to teach me.

In case you haven't noticed, I have a very low opinion of pretty much everyone else on the planet so there is no way that I am going to be swayed by what some other idiot is doing, unless I can see the logic and reason behind it and that logic and reason is compelling. You should all be the same - nobody knows what's best for you except you. Of course, I pick up little tid-bits here and there, from all over the place, and incorporate them into my own working methods, but to holus-bolus take something on just because other people are doing it is madness. It is the very essence of sheepleness. i.e. It's what makes you all sheeple, not people. (I got threatened with being banned from Gizmodo for using the word "sheeple' instead of "people" in comments.)
My impression is, they are using it because of the live performance features and functionality which things like Cubase or Logic can't do as well.
Given that Cubase will work perfectly for us on stage, I think it is stupid to call those features "live" features. They are more accurately "DJing" features.
vurt wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:50 am
except he was orion based for years, which only had linear midi recording enabled later on.
Orion has never had any kind of linear MIDI recording. You can only record MIDI into patterns and you can only add patterns to the Playlist so all your MIDI has to go into patterns. The only concession Rich made was to make the maximum pattern length some ridiculous value but 99% of my patterns would be 4 bars or less and all the longer ones would be for single sustained notes or chords.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:06 pm

BONES wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:52 pm
machinesworking wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:14 am
And not to be a dick here, but if Orion was so great, why did it go under?
Mostly because people are idiots incapable of rational thought. They prioritise features over sound quality and are more interested in the process than the results. The professional market, who might actually have seen the advantages of it, would never have been exposed to it. I also think that Rich is probably much better at making this stuff than he is at marketing it so it stopped getting much exposure a long time ago. e.g. If you look at Sound On Sound's website, their latest Orion review is for version 3, way back in 2003. The next 5 versions went by under the radar.
Hmm? the whole, the rest of the world is wrong argument. Sound on Sound are pretty brutal with only documenting the biggest DAWs out there for sure. My point is and will remain that your workflow is not everyone else’s workflow. I get assuming it’s the best, because by all means it’s the best for you and the music you do, but it’s a logical fallacy to think your workflow works best for everyone. That said, this is why people end up hating you, it’s not your opinion that gets the hate, it’s that you think everyone else’s opinion is idiotic.

IMO the workflow worked for you, but just like in arguments there are logical fallacies, humans do this all the time with learning, the way you learned something is the best way to do it etc.
There is a problem with your logic right here, in that you can't assume the way someone first learns something becomes the immutable truth for them. The reality is that most of us learn and grow throughout our lives and the way I was working on our latest album last year in Orion bares very little resemblance to the way I was working when we did our fist album on it. Things evolve and you can't stand still and hope to remain relevant.
Thrown into the bigger audience for the product, the wrinkles come out.

Not at all what I meant, you think your workflow at any moment in time is best. Consequentially the tools you develop your workflow on become the ones you judge all other by. It’s why the first DAW that really clicks for people describes their choices going forward. Ableton users switch to Bitwig. Logic or DP users will switch to Cubase etc. Getting someone who uses Live to use DP is pretty much a no starter because the workflows are different. Consequentially people will hate the DAW they do not know how to use, with a workflow they are unfamiliar with, and it will contain a lot of confirmation bias, or frustration based on lack of familiarity.
And therein lies the problem - sheeple want every product to be all things so what we end up with are massive applications full to the brim with compromises in the attempt to please everyone. So, ultimately, you can use whichever one you choose and it will get the job done. You just have to choose which steaming pile of compromises is the least offensive to your sensibilities. In the race to be all things to all people, there are no longer any of them that can claim to be the perfect solution for everyone. Even Reason has ceased to be different in any meaningful way, just to chase market share.
Hmm. I don’t agree, but I get your point. Jack of all trades, master of none, yeah that’s a problem. Personally I want areas I can’t get a plug in for or can’t really accomplish outside of a DAW without problems taken care of. I don’t need FX and instruments, I don’t need things that VSTs can do, and even extensive two track editing to me is silly considering how many cheap or free editors are out there. On the other hand I completely get Cubase and Logic having articulation support, MPE, VCAs etc. etc. Things that aren’t that easy to implement outside of the DAW.

That attitude is why I don't like Reaper and it's kind of wrecked all the other hosts, too. Rich never tried to play that game, he tried to remain true to his original vision and focused on sound quality and simplicity.
Honestly more than other DAW you can turn off full parts of Reaper, empty the menus of commands, etc. etc. even customize buttons on the mouse. The one thing I do like about Reaper is the ability to force it to work the way you want it to.

Sound quality is a false argument, period.

I don't think about it that way. I'm am far less interested in features than workflow. I want to get stuff done and the easier it is, the more productive I can be. Complicating things just to broaden your appeal is a failure for me. I only want to add complexity as it is needed, I don't want to have to deal with it from the start. The simplest example of that is if I want to demo a new synth. In Orion I can just load the instrument, press CTRL+R to create a random pattern and press play to hear it. If I want to do that in Cubase I have to drag the instrument across into the whatever it is window to create a new track, then I have to drag out a clip, then drag out a playback area so that it loops, then I have to double-click the clip to open it in the piano roll and manually create a pattern. Only after I've done all that can I press play and start previewing patches. Who can be arsed doing all that just to discover something is rubbish?
Yep most DAWs require too many steps for that, Live doesn’t, it’s drag and drop. It’s why you see almost every developer using it to demo their products.
Of course a template, which any DAW really can do, would make this as easy as Orion.

I get how you argue your point, a lot of people I know argue from a soldiers point of view, they align themselves with a brand and defend their positions, but to say you're giving well thought out rational opinions on FL in this thread would be a lie, it's all emotion and generalized statements.
Bullshit. There is no emotion. If there was, I would never have even bothered trying out FL 12 because think Gol is a dickhead and Imageline and I had a massive falling out many years ago. But that is completely irrelevant to my assessment of the application. If anything, it would make me feel good to think that these guys who don't like me at all are making a product that helps me get my work done. That would really piss them off, I reckon.
Lol! you made my point with the adamant swearing. I’m on board with using tools regardless of the developer, but that was never my point.


Whereas I see the need to rely on hotkeys as a failure of the UI design. If I could get all my work done without a computer keyboard at all, I'd be very happy. For me the mouse is the perfect tool.
I think the quantize options are severely limited as well, and again the amount of clicks it takes to change quantize settings is more than other DAWs.
Whereas I've never used quantise on anything since i moved to working ITB. If I need to, I move notes around manually, allowing them to snap to the grid. But mostly I create patterns with my mouse in the piano roll.
We work completely differently, I almost never mouse in notes in a piano roll, I play in most things, then correct my crappy keyboard playing. DP has fantastic quantize settings coming from it’s days as MIDI only, I like that for those very reasons. Key commands once learned are faster than mousing, period. Logic pre Apple buy out was extremely fast for editing with a heavy key command system. Everything is a PITA to learn, but some things have a speed limit, mousing has a speed limit. Otherwise why not go into a menu to mouse a command like "press CTRL+R to create a random pattern"?


I could do this with any DAW I've used, dissect the workflow and what exactly I though wasn't as well thought out as other DAWs. So when I hear people just knock a DAW for not being developed by a musician, Bad different etc. I just think hater. :shrug:
Then you lack imagination and/or the ability to read things in context.
Or maybe I just see someone who thinks their opinions are cemented in stone and mounted on a cliff for all us to see if we only looked clearly.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:09 pm

reggie1979 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:26 am
A long time ago I had live and push. Hasn't that improved a bunch with doing key commands and such?
Not many new key commands, Live 10 made Push 2 an actual product that's worth owning though. Previous to that I mainly used it as an expensive Launchpad, and to mix in Reaper with DrivenByMoss4Reaper.

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vurt
addled muppet weed
50017 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:06 am

@bones
the last couple of versions of orion, you could record midi linearly, if you opened the song playlist rather than had the instrument at the front, it would just grow the "pattern".
whereas in loop mode obvs, it would loop around the pattern length overdubbing.

and although in pattern mode 999 was the highest digit visible, the pattern could be longer.

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Grizzellda
KVRian
569 posts since 21 Feb, 2015

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:52 am

MuLab!!! :hihi: 8) :hihi: 8)

reggie1979
KVRian
1385 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:15 am

Wholab?

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
8637 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:41 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:06 pm
Hmm? the whole, the rest of the world is wrong argument.
Do you understand what your problem is? Your problem is that you can't separate yourself from your tools, your process or your choices. If someone challenges any of those things, you take it personally and respond emotionally, not rationally. I am not like that, I'll switch to something else in a heartbeat if it offers me a better workflow or let's me do things to a higher standard or just generally improves things for us.

I am not defined by the tools I use, I have no personal investment in them beyond the time and effort I spend learning how to get the most from them. I was never a Fruityloops guy or an Orion guy or a Bitwig guy and I am not now a Cubase guy. The only thing that I have any personal attachment to, the only thing that is important to me at all, is the stuff that ends up being encoded onto CDs and distributed via iTunes or Spotify. Everything that gets me to that point is just a tool and whether they are hardware or software, digital or analogue, they are all completely interchangeable as far as I'm concerned.

OTOH, you feel the need to defend your choices, as though you had a hand in their creation or something. It's like a mechanic being more proud of his chest full of tools than the performance of the race cars he prepares.
That said, this is why people end up hating you, it’s not your opinion that gets the hate, it’s that you think everyone else’s opinion is idiotic.
And that's relevant to anything how, exactly? Again, you want to make it all personal. I don't care if you can't separate fact from your ego but it should go a long way towards explaining why I think so many opinions around here are largely worthless, don't you think? Honestly, the fact that you would hate someone for expressing an opinion on something as trivial as tools for making music should give you pause. It's just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Not at all what I meant, you think your workflow at any moment in time is best.
Of course I do because if it wasn't, I'd change it. Why do you think I spend time here? e.g. How long do you think I spent looking at DP after you said it was your main host? Would it surprise you that I spent half-an-hour or more on the MOTU site checking it out and then I read the SOS review of DP9 in full before deciding not to download the demo? I spend time here primarily because I am looking for ways to improve the way I work.
Consequentially the tools you develop your workflow on become the ones you judge all other by.

What, the TB303? Or QX-7? I have developed a dozen or more different workflows over the years to accommodate whatever I had to work with. I now have a very different workflow in Cubase to that which I had in Orion. Orion, in turn, was very different to Fruityloops. I had a decent, usable workflow in Bitwig, too, it just wasn't terribly efficient, much like Cubase. The difference is that i feel Cubase has some compensations for that, whereas Bitwig didn't. e.g. With Bitwig I felt I still needed Audition for audio editing, I don't think I will in Cubase. But some of the little things I learned using Bitwig I carried back to Orion, like putting one-shot samples into an audio track instead of loading them into a sampler or drumrack, as I'd always done previously. So whilst my Bitwig experiment cost me a lot of money, it wan't a complete waste.

It’s why the first DAW that really clicks for people describes their choices going forward. Ableton users switch to Bitwig. Logic or DP users will switch to Cubase etc. Getting someone who uses Live to use DP is pretty much a no starter because the workflows are different. Consequentially people will hate the DAW they do not know how to use, with a workflow they are unfamiliar with, and it will contain a lot of confirmation bias, or frustration based on lack of familiarity.
And therein lies the problem - sheeple want every product to be all things so what we end up with are massive applications full to the brim with compromises in the attempt to please everyone. So, ultimately, you can use whichever one you choose and it will get the job done. You just have to choose which steaming pile of compromises is the least offensive to your sensibilities. In the race to be all things to all people, there are no longer any of them that can claim to be the perfect solution for everyone. Even Reason has ceased to be different in any meaningful way, just to chase market share.
I don’t need FX and instruments, I don’t need things that VSTs can do
I definitely appreciate them because it saves me having to go out and find things just to do simple tasks. I prefer to reserve plugins for the more exotic things, I am more than happy to use the built-in stuff for the basics. I haven't put it to the test in Cubase but, in Orion, the native tools were way more CPU-efficient than any third party stuff and sounded at least as good. But if you are bouncing around from one host to another, then using plugins would be one less headache to deal with. That was a really big thing for me in Bitwig - I didn't feel that it's on-board instruments and effects were any good at all. That wouldn't worry me so much today, as I've spent a shitload on plugins in the last year or two, but back when I bought it, it was a real problem because 75% of the instruments we used and around 95% of the effects came from Orion.
even extensive two track editing to me is silly considering how many cheap or free editors are out there.
For us that involves a lot of back-and-forth. It is way, way easier to do it in your DAW if you can.
Honestly more than other DAW you can turn off full parts of Reaper, empty the menus of commands, etc. etc. even customize buttons on the mouse. The one thing I do like about Reaper is the ability to force it to work the way you want it to.
Who can be arsed doing that, though? First you have to learn how to use it, then work out how you want to set it up. Life's too short.
Sound quality is a false argument, period.
No it's not. I'm not talking about the way the host sums the signals in the mixer but the sound quality of the included instruments and effects. Rich constantly improved the quality of the tools inside Orion to the extent that I never even looked at 3rd party effects for the standard things (delay, reverb, compression, chorus, etc.). They were completely unnecessary and added nothing. In 18 years I spent less than $500 on plugins while we were using Orion. Since we started looking at other options two or three years ago, I reckon I've probably spent five times that, mostly trying to replace what we had. Orion had a 3 osc wavetable synth, just about the best sounding V/A I've ever used, three different drum machines, an excellent sampler, a 4 osc wave-morphing synth and it all came with a generous helping of super high quality sampled content to make it sound amazing.

Of course a template, which any DAW really can do, would make this as easy as Orion.
Yeah but it's work that I don't feel I should have to do, an admission that Cubase isn't as easy to use as it should be. A bolted-on kludge to make it feel like its better than it really is.
Lol! you made my point with the adamant swearing. I’m on board with using tools regardless of the developer, but that was never my point.
Swearing is punctuation, nothing more.
Key commands once learned are faster than mousing, period.
Only if your keyboard is right in front of you. Ideally, mine has a Roli Seaboard sitting on top of it, which is new thing that has improved my workflow enormously. I'd use keyboard shortcuts if they meant I could leave my muse at home but I can't. I could leave my keyboard at home when I had a convertible/2-in-1, though, which is why the mouse wins.
Logic pre Apple buy out was extremely fast for editing with a heavy key command system. Everything is a PITA to learn, but some things have a speed limit, mousing has a speed limit. Otherwise why not go into a menu to mouse a command like "press CTRL+R to create a random pattern"?
Because I don't have my Seaboard over the keys then. Otherwise I wouldn't need to create a pattern at all. In fact, I should set up my KeyStep, then I definitely wouldn't need to create a pattern.
Or maybe I just see someone who thinks their opinions are cemented in stone and mounted on a cliff for all us to see if we only looked clearly.
Then, as I said, you aren't reading in context. Mine was hardly the lone voice on the subject. I could have said exactly what they had said but i chose to summarise it. Remember, too, that I have actually used it, you haven't. If you tried it, I am reasonably confident that you'd see the truth of what I said. Of course, it's probably a lot less work for you to simply make assumptions based on nothing at all and to hell with reality.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

reggie1979
KVRian
1385 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:03 pm

Hun?

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