machinesworking wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:06 pm
Hmm? the whole, the rest of the world is wrong argument.
Do you understand what your problem is? Your problem is that you can't separate yourself from your tools, your process or your choices. If someone challenges any of those things, you take it personally and respond emotionally, not rationally. I am not like that, I'll switch to something else in a heartbeat if it offers me a better workflow or let's me do things to a higher standard or just generally improves things for us.
I am not defined by the tools I use, I have no personal investment in them beyond the time and effort I spend learning how to get the most from them. I was never a Fruityloops guy or an Orion guy or a Bitwig guy and I am not now a Cubase guy. The only thing that I have any personal attachment to, the only thing that is important to me at all, is the stuff that ends up being encoded onto CDs and distributed via iTunes or Spotify. Everything that gets me to that point is just a tool and whether they are hardware or software, digital or anal
ogue, they are all completely interchangeable as far as I'm concerned.
OTOH, you feel the need to defend your choices, as though you had a hand in their creation or something. It's like a mechanic being more proud of his chest full of tools than the performance of the race cars he prepares.
That said, this is why people end up hating you, it’s not your opinion that gets the hate, it’s that you think everyone else’s opinion is idiotic.
And that's relevant to anything how, exactly? Again, you want to make it all personal. I don't care if you can't separate fact from your ego but it should go a long way towards explaining why I think so many opinions around here are largely worthless, don't you think? Honestly, the fact that you would hate someone for expressing an opinion on something as trivial as tools for making music should give you pause. It's just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Not at all what I meant, you think your workflow at any moment in time is best.
Of course I do because if it wasn't, I'd change it. Why do you think I spend time here? e.g. How long do you think I spent looking at DP after you said it was your main host? Would it surprise you that I spent half-an-hour or more on the MOTU site checking it out and then I read the SOS review of DP9 in full before deciding not to download the demo? I spend time here primarily because I am looking for ways to improve the way I work.
Consequentially the tools you develop your workflow on become the ones you judge all other by.
What, the TB303? Or QX-7? I have developed a dozen or more different workflows over the years to accommodate whatever I had to work with. I now have a very different workflow in Cubase to that which I had in Orion. Orion, in turn, was very different to Fruityloops. I had a decent, usable workflow in Bitwig, too, it just wasn't terribly efficient, much like Cubase. The difference is that i feel Cubase has some compensations for that, whereas Bitwig didn't. e.g. With Bitwig I felt I still needed Audition for audio editing, I don't think I will in Cubase. But some of the little things I learned using Bitwig I carried back to Orion, like putting one-shot samples into an audio track instead of loading them into a sampler or drumrack, as I'd always done previously. So whilst my Bitwig experiment cost me a lot of money, it wan't a complete waste.
It’s why the first DAW that really clicks for people describes their choices going forward. Ableton users switch to Bitwig. Logic or DP users will switch to Cubase etc. Getting someone who uses Live to use DP is pretty much a no starter because the workflows are different. Consequentially people will hate the DAW they do not know how to use, with a workflow they are unfamiliar with, and it will contain a lot of confirmation bias, or frustration based on lack of familiarity.
And therein lies the problem - sheeple want every product to be all things so what we end up with are massive applications full to the brim with compromises in the attempt to please everyone. So, ultimately, you can use whichever one you choose and it will get the job done. You just have to choose which steaming pile of compromises is the least offensive to your sensibilities. In the race to be all things to all people, there are no longer any of them that can claim to be the perfect solution for everyone. Even Reason has ceased to be different in any meaningful way, just to chase market share.
I don’t need FX and instruments, I don’t need things that VSTs can do
I definitely appreciate them because it saves me having to go out and find things just to do simple tasks. I prefer to reserve plugins for the more exotic things, I am more than happy to use the built-in stuff for the basics. I haven't put it to the test in Cubase but, in Orion, the native tools were way more CPU-efficient than any third party stuff and sounded at least as good. But if you are bouncing around from one host to another, then using plugins would be one less headache to deal with. That was a really big thing for me in Bitwig - I didn't feel that it's on-board instruments and effects were any good at all. That wouldn't worry me so much today, as I've spent a shitload on plugins in the last year or two, but back when I bought it, it was a real problem because 75% of the instruments we used and around 95% of the effects came from Orion.
even extensive two track editing to me is silly considering how many cheap or free editors are out there.
For us that involves a lot of back-and-forth. It is way, way easier to do it in your DAW if you can.
Honestly more than other DAW you can turn off full parts of Reaper, empty the menus of commands, etc. etc. even customize buttons on the mouse. The one thing I do like about Reaper is the ability to force it to work the way you want it to.
Who can be arsed doing that, though? First you have to learn how to use it, then work out how you want to set it up. Life's too short.
Sound quality is a false argument, period.
No it's not. I'm not talking about the way the host sums the signals in the mixer but the sound quality of the included instruments and effects. Rich constantly improved the quality of the tools inside Orion to the extent that I never even looked at 3rd party effects for the standard things (delay, reverb, compression, chorus, etc.). They were completely unnecessary and added nothing. In 18 years I spent less than $500 on plugins while we were using Orion. Since we started looking at other options two or three years ago, I reckon I've probably spent five times that, mostly trying to replace what we had. Orion had a 3 osc wavetable synth, just about the best sounding V/A I've ever used, three different drum machines, an excellent sampler, a 4 osc wave-morphing synth and it all came with a generous helping of super high quality sampled content to make it sound amazing.
Of course a template, which any DAW really can do, would make this as easy as Orion.
Yeah but it's work that I don't feel I should have to do, an admission that Cubase isn't as easy to use as it should be. A bolted-on kludge to make it feel like its better than it really is.
Lol! you made my point with the adamant swearing. I’m on board with using tools regardless of the developer, but that was never my point.
Swearing is punctuation, nothing more.
Key commands once learned are faster than mousing, period.
Only if your keyboard is right in front of you. Ideally, mine has a Roli Seaboard sitting on top of it, which is new thing that has improved my workflow enormously. I'd use keyboard shortcuts if they meant I could leave my muse at home but I can't. I could leave my keyboard at home when I had a convertible/2-in-1, though, which is why the mouse wins.
Logic pre Apple buy out was extremely fast for editing with a heavy key command system. Everything is a PITA to learn, but some things have a speed limit, mousing has a speed limit. Otherwise why not go into a menu to mouse a command like "press CTRL+R to create a random pattern"?
Because I don't have my Seaboard over the keys then. Otherwise I wouldn't need to create a pattern at all. In fact, I should set up my KeyStep, then I definitely wouldn't need to create a pattern.
Or maybe I just see someone who thinks their opinions are cemented in stone and mounted on a cliff for all us to see if we only looked clearly.
Then, as I said, you aren't reading in context. Mine was hardly the lone voice on the subject. I could have said exactly what they had said but i chose to summarise it. Remember, too, that I have actually used it, you haven't. If you tried it, I am reasonably confident that you'd see the truth of what I said. Of course, it's probably a lot less work for you to simply make assumptions based on nothing at all and to hell with reality.