What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
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Karma_tba
KVRian
1067 posts since 12 Aug, 2004

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:03 am

vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:57 am
Karma_tba wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:54 am
@ vurt sorry but ableton just ain't my cup of pee.
:tu: no need for sorry, was just wondering :)
dont use it myself as i dont really do loops n stuff.

glad to see someone still flying the orion flag! 8)
since bones went cubase i thought it was over :lol:
Orion for fleshing out Ideas ...Studio One ver 2 for the real thang.

stearine
KVRist
137 posts since 6 Jun, 2019

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am

vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:55 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:50 am
Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.
think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Are you?
Who works like that? Which DAW's don't have the concept of a "pattern"?


EDIT: Sorry, I of course meant; I am uncertain whether the statement (which I am addressing) was a humorous, or a serious one. Was it perhaps humorous?

:phew:
Hink wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:39 am
I'M TIRED OF

YOU IGNORING ME.
Last edited by stearine on Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
50017 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:18 am

stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:55 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:50 am
Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.
think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Are you? Who works like that? Which DAW's don't have the concept of a "pattern"?
well all daws can do patterns of course, but for example pro tools is more aimed at recording full tracks than patterns. so the workflow around that is more streamlined.

whereas ableton, is more streamlined as a pattern based daw although it can be used linearly.

it's just about onboard tools and workflow enhancement being stronger towards one or the other.

also, i record full tracks :P
live instruments more than plugins.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:28 am

stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:55 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:50 am
Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.
think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Are you? Who works like that? Which DAW's don't have the concept of a "pattern"?
Hard to quantify, but some DAWs concentrate more heavily on loops or patterns than others. The classic example are FL, Live and Acid etc. Compare the way Live uses Session View with it's Clips to Pro Tools or DP or any linear arrangement only DAW. DP doesn't concentrate on loops, in fact it's really easy to get quantization settings wrong and loop something at 1/64th of a beat off compared to Logic or Cubase or Live. DP and Pro Tools tend to concentrate on the timeline, there are more tools in those DAWs for doing things in a linear fashion. You can record a grand piano performance free hand in DP for example and make DPs tempo conductor track match the tempo fluctuations in your playing, so then you could add in drums to the 'beat'. Conversely in Live you can loop any MIDI or audio clip in Session View, add in any length clip from any track out of any place in the Session. Live is at heart more loop centric than DP, now it's of course possible to solve most of these differences if you spend the time to, it's just where is the inherent strength? For years people looked outside of Pro Tools for MIDI solutions for example, you could even use Logic or DP as a front end fro Digidesign hardware.
These days the distinctions are a lot less clear, but if a DAW concentrates on getting clips of audio to play back loop wise correctly, but doesn't have SysEx, NRPN, tempo changes, advanced audio editing etc. in it's timeline it's safe to say it's a more loop based DAW than say Logic or Cubase etc.

codec_spurt
KVRAF
3654 posts since 21 Sep, 2005

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:30 am

vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:19 am

that surprises me, at least as far as ableton, id imagine for hip hop type stuff it could be great?
not that orion isnt enough of course.
i still make use of it for midi, but the audio is useless for my needs.
i do more cutting and moving around, orion has no option for just pulling a sample across tracks, otherwise id still be using nothing but!
i added samplitude for audio work.

did you ever try ableton or just couldn't be bothered, no point if you can do everything you need in what you have i guess :)
The truth is you can just about make just about any genre of music in just about any DAW these days. I know most of you know that.

Programs like Orion seem to do an awful lot but really lack some essential features to take it to the next level. Bit like EnergyXT. I guess it's testament to how good they are that they have such a loyal and devoted fanbase. I only scraped around the edges with what XT1 could do, but I still made some great tracks with it. XT2 can do an awful lot as well as a basic scratch pad, even going so far as to do finished tracks in it. The audio implementation is even quite good, but that showstopper bug - the one where you get deafening EXPLOSIONS when you mess about with fade in/outs - kind of means it's not really HEALTHY to mess too much with it. It's actually pretty dangerous and could easily blow your speakers/cause hearing loss.

With regard to making hip hop in Ableton, yeah, it works. You can make drum and bass with it good too. Experimental stuff. All kinds of things. The warping feature is handy for automatically stretching loops to fit and for tweaking them. Though sometimes it gets confusing with it not warping how you like it to and you have to readjust. It can be a right pain in fact when you've not used it for a while. Sometimes I've spent like an hour or two sorting out the audio to fit. In Studio One you just drag the loop in and alt-stretch iirc, for it to fit. Lot less fuss but there are other more advanced options available for audio if you need them or just want to play about.

Studio One (even version 2) is all you need though for making hip hop or drum n bass. It has really good timestretching and is easy to adjust audio to taste. I guess the assumption is that when someone makes hip hop they use loops or beats from elsewhere, but this isn't always the case. I never really dissected Karma's tracks that much, but going from memory (and I'm a fan of his work) it may be that it's not that loop or 'beats' heavy. I think a lot of it is played in. It's quite minimal as well. Maybe he loads up the odd loop here or there and fits it in, I don't know.

The genre of hip hop covers a lot of ground. Some of it is very heavily sample based, but these days, unless you are either doing it purely for fun and no one will ever hear your music, or at the other end you are doing it purely for profit and you have a major label behind you to clear the samples, I think a lot of people working in this genre just play everything themselves and only sample their own work. That's how I do it anyway.

A lot of people use FLStudio for hip hop so that speaks for itself, but you can also use it to make drum n bass - it's killer for that. It's also a very very handy program to have if you want to record live midi in via keyboard workstations - it can record multi-channel midi in with ease. It was the only program that could do it in fact with such ease. It's a very under-rated program.

It's easy to get up and running quickly with FLStudio but it quickly becomes frustrating to do more (what some might call linear) advanced arrangements. It just takes a bit of time to get your head around the workflow and it's super easy to do very very quick arrangements in fact. Most people just can't get their heads around the 'dual-paradigm' concept. The fact that image line have changed how the program works as well probably hasn't helped.

The problem comes with FLS when you want to mix stuff down in your arrangement, then it gets heavy quickly unless you have taken the time to learn it and RTFM. Lots of little frustrations with it that can take ages to iron out. So many advanced concepts with it but so esoteric and arcane at the same time.

I spent an hour today trying to apply a filter to a loop in Slicex. I use it all the time, but today it just evaded me. It was such an obvious thing when I worked it out, but you are so overloaded with options that it's easy to get lost. I ended up learning 10 new things that you can do with it though while I was working this out. Image line plugins and DAWs aren't for everyone.

It's essential stuff for me though after spending decades learning how to use all this stuff. The fact you can use FLS as a VSTi as well is also very handy - it automatically recalls the whole lot, unlike when you ReWire it.

I find it very easy making half finished tracks very quickly in FLS, then I cut my losses and use something like Studio One to take it further, knowing I can ReWire or host FLS within the Studio One song itself if I need to go back and tweak things a bit. But really, it's not hard to put on a few eq's and comp's and 'verbs and whatever on the inserts of FLS as you go along to get quite a fairly polished production with little effort. Could I do an entire track in it from start to finish? Yeah. Would I want to? Probably not.

And so we come full circle with Cubase after a few decades of using it on and off, through all its ups and downs. It's a powerhouse and if you know how to use it you can do polished tracks very quickly through all the stages of the production process.

We've really hit the peak of what is possible. I remember having to manually sample drums by importing audio and chopping out the kicks and snares to put on individual tracks, to overlay on the timestretched loops (even back then you could timestretch) - all because VST tech did not exist. There was no such thing as a software VST drum machine where you could sample in to that and load it on a track. I think FXpansion were one of the first to do this after VST tech was invented. They were among the first anyway.

It was a real pain. Yet ironically, even to this day, that is how people still produce a lot of types of music. DnB particularly. I remember teaching this method to some kids that wanted to know how to construct a DnB track, all those decades ago. But today producers still work in this way (if the Computer Music tutorials are anything to go by any way). Who needs software VST drum machines/samplers?

And now we have VST drum machine/samplers like FXpansion's Geist2 that are pretty much a DAW in themselves. And we can load a few of these up on an average computer in our DAW of choice. We are overloaded really.

The hardest thing is to maintain a vision of what it is you are trying to achieve. It helps to be able to compartmentalise the experimentation and end-production phases of the process. And this is where having different DAWs comes in handy.

But even Cubase isn't perfect for everything. Just as FLStudio is one of the best programs for recording in MIDI (you don't hear that every day do you?), then programs like REAPER have no competition when it comes to recording in old DAT tapes or 4-Tracks. You would think it's such a simple thing, that any old DAW could do it. But not only is it a painful process in many DAWs, some of them just can't do it all! It's not possible. If it wasn't for REAPER I'd be totally lost. You might not understand this, but try it sometime. It's not so easy.

A while back I thought I'd be checking out even more DAWs as well like Plogue or Audio Mulch or Renoise. But I'm getting old. My eyesight is starting to go. My cognitive facilities are in decline. It doesn't get better from here. Well, 'better' as in 'faster', 'quicker', let's say.

But it's not all bad. Just as technology hits a peak, so do humans.

It's time to leverage and consolidate all these decades of learning in to a coherent whole. After all, what was it all for? Just to learn yet another DAW?

There comes a point where the 'clever' realise the law of diminishing returns at play. Where they remember what it was that drew them all in to this sorry sordid business in the first place :dog: - that was it... doh!

Making music. Finishing all those dozens of songs you wrote to a 'good enough' level, that makes you happy and makes the whole trip worthwhile. And if others can get some enjoyment out of it as well, great.

If only we could live to be a thousand years old. We might become tired, but then again, we might get around to finishing some bloody tracks, in yet another DAW...
"you're all GUI whores." - banned KVR member 'snooky'.

reggie1979
KVRian
1386 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:32 am

vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:18 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:55 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:50 am
Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.
think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Are you? Who works like that? Which DAW's don't have the concept of a "pattern"?
well all daws can do patterns of course, but for example pro tools is more aimed at recording full tracks than patterns. so the workflow around that is more streamlined.

whereas ableton, is more streamlined as a pattern based daw although it can be used linearly.

it's just about onboard tools and workflow enhancement being stronger towards one or the other.

also, i record full tracks :P
live instruments more than plugins.
Have you tried Reaper?

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
50017 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:33 am

reggie1979 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:32 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:18 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:55 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:50 am
Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.
think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Are you? Who works like that? Which DAW's don't have the concept of a "pattern"?
well all daws can do patterns of course, but for example pro tools is more aimed at recording full tracks than patterns. so the workflow around that is more streamlined.

whereas ableton, is more streamlined as a pattern based daw although it can be used linearly.

it's just about onboard tools and workflow enhancement being stronger towards one or the other.

also, i record full tracks :P
live instruments more than plugins.
Have you tried Reaper?
:lol: :clap:

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
3136 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:40 am

vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:33 am
reggie1979 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:32 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:18 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:55 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:50 am
Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.
think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Are you? Who works like that? Which DAW's don't have the concept of a "pattern"?
well all daws can do patterns of course, but for example pro tools is more aimed at recording full tracks than patterns. so the workflow around that is more streamlined.

whereas ableton, is more streamlined as a pattern based daw although it can be used linearly.

it's just about onboard tools and workflow enhancement being stronger towards one or the other.

also, i record full tracks :P
live instruments more than plugins.
Have you tried Reaper?
:lol: :clap:
Bitwig's Grid does it better though...

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
50017 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:42 am

Forgotten wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:40 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:33 am
reggie1979 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:32 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:18 am
stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:55 am


think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Are you? Who works like that? Which DAW's don't have the concept of a "pattern"?
well all daws can do patterns of course, but for example pro tools is more aimed at recording full tracks than patterns. so the workflow around that is more streamlined.

whereas ableton, is more streamlined as a pattern based daw although it can be used linearly.

it's just about onboard tools and workflow enhancement being stronger towards one or the other.

also, i record full tracks :P
live instruments more than plugins.
Have you tried Reaper?
:lol: :clap:
Bitwig's Grid does it better though...
:hihi:

stearine
KVRist
137 posts since 6 Jun, 2019

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:43 am

Thank you s for the clarification guys.

Can we get to the root of this problem next:

Steinberg Cubase
Image-Line FLStudio
PreSonus Studio One
Ableton Live :x
Cockos REAPER
Tracktion Waveform
Propellerhead Reason

Why, people? Why?

As a counter-measure I suggest we start applying the same convention to every other DAW, e.g. "I quite like the MIDI editing facilities in Steinberg, they are far superior to Cockos for instance." and we don't stop until total annihilation.

User avatar
Hink
Rad Grandad
29083 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:53 am

machinesworking wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:25 am
Hink wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:39 am
/end of you statements back and forth or this wont see page 13...and for some absolutely rediculous and embarrassing for each and every one of you participating in this non stop bullshit childishness I have to say it again.

ANY WORDS RESPONDING ON THOSE LINES COULD LAND ANY MEMBER SUSPENDED FOR A WEEK BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF

YOU IGNORING ME.

dont test me
If you're referencing me and Bones, I'm not offended by him, and I doubt he's offended by me.
I get our walls of text are annoying, personally I just don't bother reading when two members get that involved. :hihi:

I can stop at any time, I actually do value contradicting opinions though, so I'm enjoying chatting with Bones even if others are sort of confused by that.
understood, but you're missing my point. I am trying to get people to understand a very common denominator in thread derailments is starting with you statements as opposed to sticking to the topic. If you want to have such a conversation that's great, that's a good use of the PM. The problem is once it starts people cue off each other and well if these two are doing it I can join in...boom, pages go by, shit hits the fan and it's all the mods fault because we're not doing anything. I'm also tired of KvR being pigeon holed because of a few, you statements like "it's how kvr is" (overtly generic but you know what I mean). We have a lot to offer, members with exceptional knowledge in many areas (and for the record I would absolutely state present company included), direct access to developers, we dont deserve such negative labels.

So this has gone on for a page now, fair time to ask to have it moved to PM or stopped before others jump in and it becomes a free for all. I'm sure you can understand that, but now put yourself in my shoes with how many times I have asked this and someone always has to get the last word in, then we get caught right back in it. I ask again and it continues, when it stops it doesn't really stop it continues to another thread, I dont see how seemingly grown adults need such constant redirection.

Maybe someday people will understand that self moderation works too, knowing when enough is enough is key, not to mention perhaps more people will understand that sometimes in online debates there is great things to be gained by letting the other person have the last word (not directed at you, generalized statement I have found to be true in some cases).:)

btw I dont want to further this here, please pm me any concerns :tu:
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

User avatar
telecode
KVRian
1014 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:13 pm

Fwiw. Too much has been posted and not much to add other than, FL can do "linear" type track recording. It just goes about it a different way. I just put down an acoustic guitar live track on a
project last night. Then o watched as Konact and MIDI roll used to add strings and what not .

It works exactly like any other DAW. Just a lot more colors and a lot more clicking and right clicking when you want to record audio compared to Cubase which is just, arm and press record and away you go. To say FL is mainly a DAW for loops is incorrect. FL is not my cup of tea because I am just used to another DAW. But it's a full featured DAW product that works stable on Windows.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear

Image

User avatar
telecode
KVRian
1014 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:15 pm

Hink wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:53 am
machinesworking wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:25 am
Hink wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:39 am
/end of you statements back and forth or this wont see page 13...and for some absolutely rediculous and embarrassing for each and every one of you participating in this non stop bullshit childishness I have to say it again.

ANY WORDS RESPONDING ON THOSE LINES COULD LAND ANY MEMBER SUSPENDED FOR A WEEK BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF

YOU IGNORING ME.

dont test me
If you're referencing me and Bones, I'm not offended by him, and I doubt he's offended by me.
I get our walls of text are annoying, personally I just don't bother reading when two members get that involved. :hihi:

I can stop at any time, I actually do value contradicting opinions though, so I'm enjoying chatting with Bones even if others are sort of confused by that.
understood, but you're missing my point. I am trying to get people to understand a very common denominator in thread derailments is starting with you statements as opposed to sticking to the topic. If you want to have such a conversation that's great, that's a good use of the PM. The problem is once it starts people cue off each other and well if these two are doing it I can join in...boom, pages go by, shit hits the fan and it's all the mods fault because we're not doing anything. I'm also tired of KvR being pigeon holed because of a few, you statements like "it's how kvr is" (overtly generic but you know what I mean). We have a lot to offer, members with exceptional knowledge in many areas (and for the record I would absolutely state present company included), direct access to developers, we dont deserve such negative labels.

So this has gone on for a page now, fair time to ask to have it moved to PM or stopped before others jump in and it becomes a free for all. I'm sure you can understand that, but now put yourself in my shoes with how many times I have asked this and someone always has to get the last word in, then we get caught right back in it. I ask again and it continues, when it stops it doesn't really stop it continues to another thread, I dont see how seemingly grown adults need such constant redirection.

Maybe someday people will understand that self moderation works too, knowing when enough is enough is key, not to mention perhaps more people will understand that sometimes in online debates there is great things to be gained by letting the other person have the last word (not directed at you, generalized statement I have found to be true in some cases).:)

btw I dont want to further this here, please pm me any concerns :tu:
For some of us that have hung around KVR a while, I think you get used to the usual suspects and thread derailment. You just filter out what you don't want to read . It's all good fun.

"It's only rock and roll, but I LIKE it!"
Sir Mick Jagger and co.

:clap:
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear

Image

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
50017 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:18 pm

yeah, fl is as capable as any other, just like you said, it's not as straightforward, that's what i meant when i said some are stronger one way than the other.

i rarely mention what hosts i use, as codec said, it doesn't matter, you can do anything in anything,, we all have our workflows and thank the geeks we have various tools to support all the different ways we work :)
great times to be alive :ud:

machinesworking
KVRAF
1759 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

Post Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:19 pm

stearine wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:43 am
Thank you s for the clarification guys.

Can we get to the root of this problem next:

Steinberg Cubase
Image-Line FLStudio
PreSonus Studio One
Ableton Live :x
Cockos REAPER
Tracktion Waveform
Propellerhead Reason

Why, people? Why?

As a counter-measure I suggest we start applying the same convention to every other DAW, e.g. "I quite like the MIDI editing facilities in Steinberg, they are far superior to Cockos for instance." and we don't stop until total annihilation.
Because Ableton used an actual word that you use all the time to describe a musical event. Plus AKAI screwed it up even further with the MPC Live, X and software.

So I'm playing live with Ableton Live and an MPC Live. I use Sampler as a sampler in Ableton Live, and in the MPC Live I use Kontakt as a sampler, not Sampler, because that's the built in sampler for Ableton Live not MPC Live.

Ableton are the worst for this, Analog, Racks, Operator etc. You're literally forced to say "I'm playing live with Live, my sampler is Sampler, my synth is Analog. my wavetable synth is Wavetable. I swear they had their 5 year old name their plug ins! :hihi:

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