For Steinberg, any future product and update release, Windows below 10 is 'dead'

[CasualHobbyist]

I can only urge anyone seriously considering Linux for audio work to try it out. Especially if you're not a pro at Linux, or at computing in general. I'll happily see you all running back to Microsoft or Apple.

Ha! wouldn't surprise me honestly. That being said, given the plethora of user-friendly Linux distributions out there, the barrier-entry has considerably lowered for the average Windows user, so even people who are not "pros" at Linux should be able to use it if they take the time to read and learn new concepts.

But since the vast majority of Windows users don't even know that they can boot other OSes into their computer (including Mac with Hackintosh), and even when they do, they expect the system to behave or be like Windows, when it clearly isn't, they often end up running back and never looking again out of fear or unwillingness to step out of the comfort zone, and that's how it is.

On-topic again. I find it odd that Steinberg wouldn't at least support Windows 8.1 support as their extended support ends in 2023 iirc. Makes me wonder how these decisions are taken

[chk071]

On-topic again. I find it odd that Steinberg wouldn't at least support Windows 8.1 support as their extended support ends in 2023 iirc. Makes me wonder how these decisions are taken

Most probably by figures the respective departments are working with. Windows 8 is really not a big deal these days. And the tendency has always been downwards the last years (i frequent some forums/blog where such figures are regularly posted).

[mcbpete]

Most probably by figures the respective departments are working with. Windows 8 is really not a big deal these days. And the tendency has always been downwards the last years (i frequent some forums/blog where such figures are regularly posted).

Yeah looks like even Win8.0+8.1 combined is considerably lower than Win7 - https://gs.statcounter.com/os-version-m ... /worldwide

[Benutzername]

I'm curious what happens when I (as a software developer) go to a producer and ask him: "Do you remember me? You did a mix for me eleven years ago but now it sounds kind of outdated when compared to current mixes. Please mix it again to modern standards and it of course it has to be free of charge".

Reading through this thread the producer should be perfectly fine with this agreement as he's expecting the guys who create his tools to work under the same conditions.

[tooneba]

If security risk really hurt users Intel couldn't run their business.

[LawrenceF]

Good thing imo.

Cons for some: Using old computers that don't support Win 10 and/or just not wanting to shell out $$ for a copy it. G.A.S. has another potential roadblock.

Neutral: Anyone buying a new Windows computer will most likely have it anyway, unless someone is building it and they're asked to install another OS. Of course, nobody has to upgrade to any future version of Cubase that requires Win 10, the Cubase they have now will still work, the music goes on.

Pros for everyone else: Their internal resources and support services aren't stretched across multiple different Windows operating systems, which arguably would make them more efficient.

[stearine]

so even people who are not "pros" at Linux should be able to use it if they take have the time to read and learn new mostly useless concepts.

FTFY. :-)

[Functional]

It's ridiculous to complain about this considering that around the same time, Microsoft will also end supporting Windows 7. And not sure what the fuss is about WIndows 10 either; I've used it for god knows how long and actually the past year I have zero complaints about it anymore.

I'm not sure if y'all know about this, but Microsoft stopped the whole "Windows as a service" meme which was by far the biggest downside of Windows 10. There's no longer these forced feature updates. The smaller updates can also be opted out of etc. If this was your reason to keep yourself away from Windows 10, it's no longer the case. Well, to be quite honest, there's still "forced updates" but this is only 18 months after your last one. Which is much, much, much, much better than the biannual feature updates

In general, Microsoft has finally taken the right turn with Windows 10 and now that they're dropping permanently support from Windows 7, it does make a lot of sense for Steinberg to also drop 7 from the pool. Barring aside some very specific examples; why would a software vendor support a product that the product manufacturer itself does no longer support? It only makes sense under very specific circumstances, none of which I see here.

[Functional]

But since the vast majority of Windows users don't even know that they can boot other OSes into their computer (including Mac with Hackintosh), and even when they do, they expect the system to behave or be like Windows, when it clearly isn't, they often end up running back and never looking again out of fear or unwillingness to step out of the comfort zone, and that's how it is.

On-topic again. I find it odd that Steinberg wouldn't at least support Windows 8.1 support as their extended support ends in 2023 iirc. Makes me wonder how these decisions are taken

I'm well aware that I can run multiple OSes with my computer and in fact I do so (though both are Windows 10, just for different purposes and mostly because I want to keep production stuff away from gaming stuff).

But... the reason not to use Linux has to do with the fact that Linux usually just makes everything more tedious. The only significant that I can see it offering over Windows 10 as a producer is the lack of windows 10 overhead and a lighter OS. But all the required stitching to run non-native software will still often result into a net deficit when we account for efficiency of resource utilization. And that stitching also doesn't come out of nowhere, it often involves additional work.

So what really is the benefit of Linux aside from the novelty of getting to say that you run Linux? Now that Windows 10 stopped the whole "windows as a service" thing, Linux doesn't have much net benefits.

I do believe that Linux is the OS of the future, but for now, using Linux unless you're developing something for it or running a database / server, is just a novelty more than anything else really

[Magnut]

Yeah Steinberg again. Probably the same charts that told them it's time to move on from VST2 to VST3, told them to move on to Win10

It will not be the first time that people just stay on their machine and use the latest available DAW version. Has been with Logic like that, has been with ProTools on Mac in bigger studios like that, has been with Cubase like that before they f****d up the mixer in v5 or 6. It's not like one absolutely needs the newest Cubendo or the newest Windows.

I downgraded from Win10 to Win7 again and suddenly all worked smoothly again. I must be one of the "very few" because the "majority" is so happy with Win10 XD

[CasualHobbyist]

so even people who are not "pros" at Linux should be able to use it if they take have the time to read and learn new mostly useless concepts.

FTFY.

Funny that you say that, because nobody is forcing you to use Linux! so the "have" is pretty much pointless. As for "mostly useless" concepts, well, the same can be said for Windows or macOS. "mostly useless" also depends on what you are talking about specifically, you mean commands to execute a function? which ones? How do you define "mostly useless" if for someone else they might find incredibly useful?

But since the vast majority of Windows users don't even know that they can boot other OSes into their computer (including Mac with Hackintosh), and even when they do, they expect the system to behave or be like Windows, when it clearly isn't, they often end up running back and never looking again out of fear or unwillingness to step out of the comfort zone, and that's how it is.

On-topic again. I find it odd that Steinberg wouldn't at least support Windows 8.1 support as their extended support ends in 2023 iirc. Makes me wonder how these decisions are taken

I'm well aware that I can run multiple OSes with my computer and in fact I do so (though both are Windows 10, just for different purposes and mostly because I want to keep production stuff away from gaming stuff).

But... the reason not to use Linux has to do with the fact that Linux usually just makes everything more tedious. The only significant that I can see it offering over Windows 10 as a producer is the lack of windows 10 overhead and a lighter OS. But all the required stitching to run non-native software will still often result into a net deficit when we account for efficiency of resource utilization. And that stitching also doesn't come out of nowhere, it often involves additional work.

So what really is the benefit of Linux aside from the novelty of getting to say that you run Linux? Now that Windows 10 stopped the whole "windows as a service" thing, Linux doesn't have much net benefits.

I do believe that Linux is the OS of the future, but for now, using Linux unless you're developing something for it or running a database / server, is just a novelty more than anything else really

My point still stands. The vast majority of Windows users do not know how to boot into other OSes, or even if they can, just because you or a lot of other people can doesn't represent the majority of the customer base of one OS.

When you go and check other OSes, you're expected to do your homework. It is wrong to expect Linux to behave or act like a MS Windows clone when it isn't, its roots came from a completely different OS. Why would anyone expect that someone moves into Linux to run the "heavyweight" Windows audio plugins when the primary customer support and development revolves around the latter?

If your work relies on having accessible customer support right around the clock, tight deadlines and "My favorite DAW is Windows and macOS only!" then they should stay with their platform because then they can take advantage of all the rights that are around them along with the fact that they won't "have" to spend time learning new concepts.

However, Linux is a fully mature kernel and along with the other utilities bundled you can expect it to run on most of the hardware out there (if not, all of it), a "novelty" is something that wears off, and Linux is far from ever being in that position (specially considering the mobile, server and supercomputers markets!)

I'm not going to be saying Linux is a perfect OS that can fit all workflows and people, just like Windows or macOS obviously aren't. If you don't mind learning "tedious" knowledge or being open to new things, then I suggest trying it out, you don't have to pay for it! but if it's not your thing, then don't use it, as simple as that.

One last thing I wanted to mention is the "Windows as a Service" thing, just because a product isn't going to be constantly telling you to update, doesn't mean is also on a better position considering all this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10

Plus Xbox Statistics bundled, Candy Crush, Cortana, etc. "Net benefits" are something that differs or are valued differently among a lot of people, you can't generalize this aspect because every person's circumstance or desires/needs are going to be different. Someone might detest or outright be disgusted by MS practices and switch to something else, just like there are people who don't mind that. The world isn't a replica of someone out there, is too varied for that to happen.

I'm curious what happens when I (as a software developer) go to a producer and ask him: "Do you remember me? You did a mix for me eleven years ago but now it sounds kind of outdated when compared to current mixes. Please mix it again to modern standards and it of course it has to be free of charge".

Reading through this thread the producer should be perfectly fine with this agreement as he's expecting the guys who create his tools to work under the same conditions.

I'm very confused about this post in general. I mean, what if older mixes sound fine and don't need a remix? or even new plugins at all? How would you rank it as "outdated"? As in, they need to be updated with new techniques and concepts people have developed to mix...?

[jdnz]

I'm not sure if y'all know about this, but Microsoft stopped the whole "Windows as a service" meme which was by far the biggest downside of Windows 10. There's no longer these forced feature updates. The smaller updates can also be opted out of etc. If this was your reason to keep yourself away from Windows 10, it's no longer the case. Well, to be quite honest, there's still "forced updates" but this is only 18 months after your last one. Which is much, much, much, much better than the biannual feature updates

it's not just the frequency of the feature updates (and remember that the ability to defer for the length of time you mentioned is a win10pro thing - win10home can't do this) - it's also HOW the feature updates are rolled out (basically a clean install and application/settings migrate) - which is prone to giving all sorts of issues

If pro customers had access to the LTS deploy same as enterprise customers do that would help - 10 years of security fixes with no forced updates ever is what you want in a serious commercial studio environment (and it's why we run it on all our instrumentation deployments)

[Functional]

My point still stands. The vast majority of Windows users do not know how to boot into other OSes, or even if they can, just because you or a lot of other people can doesn't represent the majority of the customer base of one OS.

'cause the vast majority compromises of Shirleys and Franks who just want to send emails to their grandchildren. I don't really see the relevancy of your supposed point: say, some kid tries out Linux and then fails at it, does it really matter? It's not like that kid, even if he did his homework and managed to make the distro work and figured out how to operate it, would really see any kind of benefits from having it. I mean, learning how to do that certainly is a benefit in some cases, but not so much having an actual linux system.

The average usecase for Linux outside of commercial purposes is still pretty much this: you have an old PC laying around and want to put it to use, so you set it up with linux and start a mIRC server and host your chatbots in it. But now we have Discord, so I guess even that is not relevant anymore

However, Linux is a fully mature kernel and along with the other utilities bundled you can expect it to run on most of the hardware out there (if not, all of it), a "novelty" is something that wears off, and Linux is far from ever being in that position (specially considering the mobile, server and supercomputers markets!)

I think I have made it clear that I do not think Linux is going to be in its miserable state forever when I said that I think Linux is the future. But, aside from running servers, a Pi (or a similar device for whatever purposes, such as tracking cellphones to indicate activity in a particular space) or a supercomputer, it's not really much use for most consumer and professional purposes as it is right now.

And look, I can generalize this and frankly I did and I still will. You don't have Cortana, Candy Crush and all of that, which I would say goes easily under the term "Windows 10 overhead" (as overhead commonly is known to include useful AND useless stuff). And yet, Linux will on the average perform poorer for non-native software that is native to Windows. Which covers what, 95% of all applicable audio software? There's just losses with barely any gains

Once devs start developing more actively to Linux, I'll happily move over to Linux because frankly I'd rather not use Microsoft products at all if it was a viable option. Hell, maybe in future Linux could actually force Microsoft to become more sensible and start listening to its consumers and stop with the whole layered BS of enterprise/pro/home. Even if you were willing to pay the annual price of enterprise for LTSB, you'll sadly have to deal with even more BS if you'd want to upgrade your hardware for example. And yet, despite all of this, Windows is still a winner for now.

[CasualHobbyist]

My point still stands. The vast majority of Windows users do not know how to boot into other OSes, or even if they can, just because you or a lot of other people can doesn't represent the majority of the customer base of one OS.

'cause the vast majority compromises of Shirleys and Franks who just want to send emails to their grandchildren. I don't really see the relevancy of your supposed point: say, some kid tries out Linux and then fails at it, does it really matter? It's not like that kid, even if he did his homework and managed to make the distro work and figured out how to operate it, would really see any kind of benefits from having it. I mean, learning how to do that certainly is a benefit in some cases, but not so much having an actual linux system.

The average usecase for Linux outside of commercial purposes is still pretty much this: you have an old PC laying around and want to put it to use, so you set it up with linux and start a mIRC server and host your chatbots in it. But now we have Discord, so I guess even that is not relevant anymore

However, Linux is a fully mature kernel and along with the other utilities bundled you can expect it to run on most of the hardware out there (if not, all of it), a "novelty" is something that wears off, and Linux is far from ever being in that position (specially considering the mobile, server and supercomputers markets!)

I think I have made it clear that I do not think Linux is going to be in its miserable state forever when I said that I think Linux is the future. But, aside from running servers, a Pi (or a similar device for whatever purposes, such as tracking cellphones to indicate activity in a particular space) or a supercomputer, it's not really much use for most consumer and professional purposes as it is right now.

And look, I can generalize this and frankly I did and I still will. You don't have Cortana, Candy Crush and all of that, which I would say goes easily under the term "Windows 10 overhead" (as overhead commonly is known to include useful AND useless stuff). And yet, Linux will on the average perform poorer for non-native software that is native to Windows. Which covers what, 95% of all applicable audio software? There's just losses with barely any gains

Once devs start developing more actively to Linux, I'll happily move over to Linux because frankly I'd rather not use Microsoft products at all if it was a viable option. Hell, maybe in future Linux could actually force Microsoft to become more sensible and start listening to its consumers and stop with the whole layered BS of enterprise/pro/home. Even if you were willing to pay the annual price of enterprise for LTSB, you'll sadly have to deal with even more BS if you'd want to upgrade your hardware for example. And yet, despite all of this, Windows is still a winner for now.

The first point was on a discussion about people not wanting or willing to use Linux to step out of the comfort zone. And I don't disagree with the Shirleys or Franks who just want to send email to their grandchildren and rely on MS Windows to do such tasks. That being said, I am willing to wager that a kid who does learns how to use Linux and everything it offers with is knowledge and a different view of how things are handled. Linux is a very powerful tool and someone who can get/understand it can have a lot of fun or results with it, of course they are not forced to use it so they can go back to Windows if they rely on an application they like. (And considering that a lot of youngsters these days spend most of their time on a browser, well, you can do that on any OS really)

The second point was because I interpreted you saying "Novelty" as something that while new or exotic, would fade off, even if you made your point clear that Linux wasn't in any danger. I can classify this as a misunderstanding of mine, that being said, consumer or professional-wise. Well, that's only an area that can expand if companies are willing or eager to bet on Linux support, nobody can tell them how they operate but even then Linux has improved dramatically in comparison to a decade past. Tools like LibreOffice or Blender are gaining strong footholds across professional settings (that actually use a version of Linux), scientific communities use it a lot too, the amount of success stories with those is only getting better and more as time goes on, so there is something for consumers or professionals, but those are other areas, if I focus exclusively on audio, well.

I mentioned before that expecting to go to Linux to use Windows audio software is not the solution because the support contracts and primary development does not occur there. That being said, a lot of Windows audio plugins are working fine and the support is getting better for those as time goes on, I even get Windows software running better than there as the efforts of Wine/Valve's Proton get upstreamed and improved over and over. So it is possible to use a lot of plugins just fine as compatibility and performance is getting better, however, if these are professional users that, again, need customer support and the right to yell on the phone if the program doesn't work then it is understandable they wouldn't want to use Linux or its ways of working. (And not all audio plugins are working evidently, be it because they use some obscure Windows functions or the DRM in some hasn't yet been understood well either)

As I mentioned before, professionals or consumers will feel more at ease if the company behind their plugins wills it to support or maintain Linux versions of their bundles or services. We can only hope that more and more jump in or at least add some form of support there. Windows is only the "Winner" because everyone supports it and is the most used desktop out there, however, as time goes on, I believe the landscape may change to other directions, one way or another.

Obviously, one can make music on Linux given all the tools (including Wrappers) and time available. But since I focused my posts on the professional or average-consumer aspect of it, the situation is obviously different. Glad that you feel fine about its future though, we can only hope to see what entails it or means it.

[CasualHobbyist]

Well, I'd like to get the discussion back on-topic. Is it really true that Microsoft is going to maintain W10 indefinitely due to its "rolling-release" nature or will something substitute it? Has there been confirmation on that?