Reason 11 announced!!!

[Local Man]

Thoughts on rewire going to the technological waste heap. It’s a shame, there was so much potential to create a newer more robust version of it. so don’t know how hard it would have been on the Windows side but there are a lot of resources for possible separate process level integration between two DAWs but nothing elegant. Rewire despite it’a flaws was as close as it gets. The fact remains, there’s a gap between the complex DAWs and the more streamlined ones. Live, Bitwig, Reason, Renoise, FL etc are fun to write in and occasionally you run into situations where you want to use DAWs like Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, DP etc. Rewire filled a gap a plug in doesn’t fill.

On the other hand, I haven’t used Reason in over ten years but never sold the license, so getting all the tools of Reason right in my DAW of choice has me getting the upgrade for VSTi 3 support. It’s just too bad it comes with the depreciation of rewire.

I feel exactly the same way. The Reason rack plugin is a dream come true but it's a shame that it has to come at the expense of the Rewire protocol.
I agree with those saying that Rewire is a bit cumbersome and often times not worth the hassle, but sometimes it's the only way to achieve certain goals involving 2 DAW's. I'm sad to see it die.

Propellerhead..., er, uh Reason Studio's. Just because you have a baby that doesn't mean you have to put the dog to sleep.

[starflakeprj]

I fully understand why they are putting the dog to sleep. Rewire would be another feature they would have been needed to update/maintain (both feature wise, but also support wise).

The rack seemed to be one of the most requested features, and the people requesting it seemed to be wanting something better than Rewire.

But people always complain about everything, how about giving some creds for once, or does Propellerhead/Reason Studio do a bad job?

You can't do everything for everyone.

[antic604]

The fact remains, there’s a gap between the complex DAWs and the more streamlined ones. Live, Bitwig, Reason, Renoise, FL etc are fun to write in and occasionally you run into situations where you want to use DAWs like Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, DP etc. Rewire filled a gap a plug in doesn’t fill.

This is such a huge oversimplification of things, as it's based on your own perspective only and certain, very specific workflow that not everyone share.

For example myself working in Cubase I often am pissed I need to do cumbersome workarounds and multi-track constructs to do trivial - in Bitwig - stuff like parallel FX processing, multi-band splitting, off-line processing of MIDI parts, complex modulations, etc. And it f***ing crashes prety regularly due to VSTs (all legit on a clean computer, BTW), whereas this never hapens in Bitwig due to its sandboxing mechanism. I know you meant "streamlined" in a pejorative sense, but I read it as "better at what they were designed to do"

[WatchTheGuitar]

I don't tend to use rewire, but instread will output tracks as WAV file stems from say Bitwig or Ableton and then use those for mastering in Reaper just because I prefer the mixer and tooling there. Plus it's a semi-conscious thing that once it's in a certain form I can't pull it apart to 'improve' a track any more, I have to get on with it and therefore on with my life.

[machinesworking]

The fact remains, there’s a gap between the complex DAWs and the more streamlined ones. Live, Bitwig, Reason, Renoise, FL etc are fun to write in and occasionally you run into situations where you want to use DAWs like Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, DP etc. Rewire filled a gap a plug in doesn’t fill.

This is such a huge oversimplification of things, as it's based on your own perspective only and certain, very specific workflow that not everyone share.

For example myself working in Cubase I often am pissed I need to do cumbersome workarounds and multi-track constructs to do trivial - in Bitwig - stuff like parallel FX processing, multi-band splitting, off-line processing of MIDI parts, complex modulations, etc. And it f***ing crashes prety regularly due to VSTs (all legit on a clean computer, BTW), whereas this never hapens in Bitwig due to its sandboxing mechanism. I know you meant "streamlined" in a pejorative sense, but I read it as "better at what they were designed to do"

I knew that part would get to someone... basically Bitwig, Live, Reason etc. will have different features that aren't there, that for whatever reason they decided weren't worth supporting.. from as simple as Poly Aftertouch in Live to NRPN or SysEx, no scoring tabs, limited or no movie support, OMF, MMC, etc. etc. various "legacy" features. Live doesn't even have an Event list..

For some people some of these things are important, so rewire could solve this. Like a lot of us I didn't always use rewire because it wasn't perfect by any means, but when I do I appreciate it's there. For instance Live is now capable of using Push 2 to run it's Drum sequencer while in rewire mode, pretty cool. If rewire had been developed into a more advanced version think of how easy the whole thing could be. Imagine if Rewire saved states in whichever DAW was considered the host, if it basically was like MTC and Jack OS etc.

It's just a weird sideways move from Propellerheards, I figured there was this disinterest in Rewire after Reason got recording capabilities and VST support, they had less personal investment in actually developing it any further than it was in 2002, and to me this is the sad part about "standards" being developed by vested interests. It's why VST3 sucks for developers, but we're stuck with it, why AU is Apple only, why Rewire was left undeveloped after Reason became a DAW etc. etc.

[chk071]

It's just a weird sideways move from Propellerheards, I figured there was this disinterest in Rewire after Reason got recording capabilities and VST support, they had less personal investment in actually developing it any further than it was in 2002, and to me this is the sad part about "standards" being developed by vested interests. It's why VST3 sucks for developers, but we're stuck with it, why AU is Apple only, why Rewire was left undeveloped after Reason became a DAW etc. etc.

TBH, i almost don't know where to start with so many wrong assumptions... let's face it, both VST support, and offering Reason's rack as a VST for other hosts strongly hints at lack of sales, and a change of orientation after Verdane took over. Add Ernst Nathoorst Bös' retirement to the list (a strong opponent of VST support in VST, and someone who always propagated the advantages of RE's, i.e. someone who never wanted to open the closed Reason ecosystem), the lack of sequencer features of Reason compared to other hosts, and you definitely know what's going on.

I always said that VST support would kill Reason. Now they chose a workaround. "If you can't beat the opposition, join them". At least in my opinion, it's pretty obvious that there's a big change in business strategy. We'll see whether or not it works out for them. So far, i'm positive.

Also, you say VST3 sucks for developers. While we see more and more VST3's every day, because, finally, devs jump into it. It might even be true that it's worse for developers (badly documented i read), but... let's also not forget that developers are quite stubborn by nature. I'd be as well, if i have to learn very complex new tools, standards, or languages. Again, though, it obviously doesn't suck, because more and more developer adapt to it, and that's good. Because, at some point, VST2 will vanish. First from Cubase, then from other hosts. Again, you don't have to be a prophet to see that.

[machinesworking]

It's just a weird sideways move from Propellerheards, I figured there was this disinterest in Rewire after Reason got recording capabilities and VST support, they had less personal investment in actually developing it any further than it was in 2002, and to me this is the sad part about "standards" being developed by vested interests. It's why VST3 sucks for developers, but we're stuck with it, why AU is Apple only, why Rewire was left undeveloped after Reason became a DAW etc. etc.

TBH, i almost don't know where to start with so many wrong assumptions...

Ok then what is the assumption? that standards are probably not best implemented by vested interests. Well then tell me how that can be proven to be a wrong assumption? because from where I stand it's a time tested proven conflict of interest that ends up either barely working out, or being more work for third parties. Take plug ins, if there was a true universal standard that was partially developed by the developers themselves, I seriously doubt we would have a situation like VST3 where it's been out for a decade only to finally start to gain traction.

let's face it, both VST support, and offering Reason's rack as a VST for other hosts strongly hints at lack of sales, and a change of orientation after Verdane took over. Add Ernst Nathoorst Bös' retirement to the list (a strong opponent of VST support in VST, and someone who always propagated the advantages of RE's, i.e. someone who never wanted to open the closed Reason ecosystem), the lack of sequencer features of Reason compared to other hosts, and you definitely know what's going on.

I always said that VST support would kill Reason. Now they chose a workaround. "If you can't beat the opposition, join them". At least in my opinion, it's pretty obvious that there's a big change in business strategy. We'll see whether or not it works out for them. So far, i'm positive.

OK, this has nothing to do with my input here, but I think you're right, VST support was a concession to the industry, and a sign they might be struggling, sounds about right..

Also, you say VST3 sucks for developers. While we see more and more VST3's every day, because, finally, devs jump into it. It might even be true that it's worse for developers (badly documented i read), but... let's also not forget that developers are quite stubborn by nature. I'd be as well, if i have to learn very complex new tools, standards, or languages. Again, though, it obviously doesn't suck, because more and more developer adapt to it, and that's good. Because, at some point, VST2 will vanish. First from Cubase, then from other hosts. Again, you don't have to be a prophet to see that.

Just look at when VST3 came out, and how long it's taken. NI still do not support VST3, Ableton are in beta, ten years or so after introduction. Compare this to VST2.4, there's no comparison, it was immediately adopted.

You're saying I'm wrong, but you're not arguing any points I made? I'm a bit confused?

I think it's great Reason got VST support, but it kind of kills Reason's #1 selling point to me years ago, that it was a self contained stable environment that never had issues.

I'm glad VST exists, but a universal standard would have been better, otherwise there wouldn't be, as there is now, parts of VST that surprise surprise work better with Cubase than other DAWs. I'm really curious if things like the supposed ability of VST3 to shut off all CPU use when not being run is possible to implement successfully in DAWs besides Cubase for example? I'm not seeing any evidence in DAWs I use that it's the case.

Rewire is Propellerheads own tech, and I'm disappointed they didn't attempt to take it further, but if they're not doing well like you suggest I suppose I get dropping it. It was a nice somewhat universal standard for connecting more than one DAW together and I don't see anything to replace it, that's all.

[kgbrolic]

Thoughts on rewire going to the technological waste heap. It’s a shame, there was so much potential to create a newer more robust version of it. so don’t know how hard it would have been on the Windows side but there are a lot of resources for possible separate process level integration between two DAWs but nothing elegant. Rewire despite it’a flaws was as close as it gets. The fact remains, there’s a gap between the complex DAWs and the more streamlined ones. Live, Bitwig, Reason, Renoise, FL etc are fun to write in and occasionally you run into situations where you want to use DAWs like Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, DP etc. Rewire filled a gap a plug in doesn’t fill.

On the other hand, I haven’t used Reason in over ten years but never sold the license, so getting all the tools of Reason right in my DAW of choice has me getting the upgrade for VSTi 3 support. It’s just too bad it comes with the depreciation of rewire.

I feel exactly the same way. The Reason rack plugin is a dream come true but it's a shame that it has to come at the expense of the Rewire protocol.
I agree with those saying that Rewire is a bit cumbersome and often times not worth the hassle, but sometimes it's the only way to achieve certain goals involving 2 DAW's. I'm sad to see it die.

Propellerhead..., er, uh Reason Studio's. Just because you have a baby that doesn't mean you have to put the dog to sleep.

Thanks for reminding me that I had a baby and put my dog to sleep.

[Tj Shredder]

There are better solutions than Rewire. Open standard AVB or industry standard Dante. At least Dante can work within the same machine. And there is open source Jack and Soundflower as well... Though I have Dante installed I use my spdif in/out of my interface to route audio between apps, even less of a hassle...

[kmonkey]

Let's face it already.

ReWire is going out with Reason 11.

Reason Rack VST comes in.

That's it.

Everything else is on this topic is blabla

[Forgotten]

Not to forget - this is just the first iteration of the rack as a plugin - unless anyone has inside information, none of us know what enhancements will follow.

[Hanz Meyzer]

Finally! This was my main concern for about 10 years. I am very glad Propellerheads now changed their strategy to be open minded, very nice. It is a very good reason for me to buy their product. What a powerhouse of a plugin this will be.

I hope the next will be their fx only as VST fx only, separately. So you can use Reason generators, and Reason fx e.g. on a send channel of your favorite daw.

EDIT: Oh holy cow, the fx plugin also is already there!!

[Psuper]

I hope the next will be their fx only as VST fx only, separately. So you can use Reason generators, and Reason fx e.g. on a send channel of your favorite daw.

EDIT: Oh holy cow, the fx plugin also is already there!!

I didn't sign up for the beta just waiting for the release, are you saying R11 now supports midi out in the host DAW? I'm sure its coming regardless, however I'm not certain that's what you meant, and it would be nice sooner than later.

[EnochLight]

TBH, i almost don't know where to start with so many wrong assumptions... let's face it, both VST support, and offering Reason's rack as a VST for other hosts strongly hints at lack of sales, and a change of orientation after Verdane took over. Add Ernst Nathoorst Bös' retirement to the list (a strong opponent of VST support in VST, and someone who always propagated the advantages of RE's, i.e. someone who never wanted to open the closed Reason ecosystem), the lack of sequencer features of Reason compared to other hosts, and you definitely know what's going on.

Counterpoint: assuming there is a "lack of sales" just because 2 longstanding feature requests are added is pretty speculative. The fact of the matter is that capital investment firms usually don't "invest" unless they see a solid potential for growth. It's easily just as possible that at least VST support was planned before Verdane took a controlling share (hence, growth). It should also be noted that Ernst Nathorst-Böös still sits on the Board of Directors - and the new CEO reports to him (along with the other BOD members). I work for a BOD myself, and trust me - his "retirement" as CEO doesn't mean he no longer has a say in what happens.

I do agree that Reason Plugin is part of the growth plan (that's pretty obvious)! The real question is: where do they go from here? I'm excited to see what happens.

[Scotty]

Reason for me in this iteration (11 Racks) is a must have. I have really only dabbled with Reason over the past couple of years and have always wanted their stock instruments in a form I could use without rewiring into Cubase.

I'd love to see some midi out functionality so we could leverage those cool sequencers external to the rack but that would be a great selling feature for Reason 11. 5 and worth paying for as an update down the road. Bring it on. I think this is great move if we can get stability... that will be the challenge.