For Steinberg, any future product and update release, Windows below 10 is 'dead'

[codec_spurt]

Interesting.. Dux has been using Linux for 6 years and loves it (and I agree with most of what he said), Intrancer has 14 years and can only think of downsides that frankly sound more like inexperience than anything (and I disagree with most of what he said).

...

I think Intrancer was conflating DuX's point about using Linux as an every day OS and then using XP and win7 machines (airgapped) for music stuff.

As long as you compartmentalize your computer use like this, it makes sense. No one is arguing that it's even possible to get most music software to work on a Linux box - it's a non-starter.

And of course, so much other software just doesn't work either. If you do 3D for example, then great if you use Blender, but not so great if you use Cinema 4D. (Though you can use Linux nodes for network rendering. Last time I looked anyway. Maybe it's changed.)

But yes, it's very doable to get an internet surfing machine that can do basic office tasks as well. And if your music making machine is off line, you will want some kind of security enhanced machine for internet stuff - Linux is perfect for this, and only takes a little time and tech savvy to get working wonderfully, albeit with certain caveats (i.e. using a LTS support distro, else your perfectly working install stops working after six months).

[chk071]

But yes, it's very doable to get an internet surfing machine that can do basic office tasks as well.

That's mostly what i set up machines for relatives for. But... even for such basic tasks, i always had to solve sevearal issues which arose on those machines. Nope, not something i'd just install for my grand mother, and she lives happily ever after. Linux is for people who are cool with tweaking their system. And who can solve problems if there are any (which is always the case in my esperience).

Alsol, if you're looking for the common software which is available on other platforms, it's a complete no-go.

[codec_spurt]

...

Most people who have never used Linux already likely use tons of open source without thought (phones, browsers, office, video, email, etc etc), its not much of a different experience in the learning aspect with an OS unless you want to dig deeper. Just take an old PC if you have one and experiment - you don't need to replace your OS of choice you can run anything you like side by side -- but at least you'll know what choices exist.

A very easy way to test out what distros might work for you, is to set things up in a Virtual Machine. Both Virtual Box and VMWare are free and work perfectly under win7 and winX. As I mentioned in my last post, it's even possible to use them to write the Linux OS to a USB stick that you can boot with.

Not only do they show you what the Linux OS is like (various desktops like KDE, XFCE, LXDE, Cinammon, Mate), they also help you with the process of installing the OS, via virtual means.

And if you do it successfully you can even use the Linux OS from within windows to surf the net or do whatever else you want to do. You could have half a dozen Linux distros running on your windoze box. Then decide which one you want to commit to disk.

Then you may want to learn about partitioning disks and running a multi-OS environment. There are programs out there like Terabyte Bootit Bare Metal - https://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootit-bare-metal.htm

Most people will find it easier just using an old box to run Linux for surfing. But some may want to dual boot. With the Terabyte software you could conceivably boot half a dozen OS's or more. Hardware and driver issues permitting of course.

There are also other solutions.

But really, I think it's best to have one machine for internet, and another totally unplugged and off-line for DAW work. Most people have an old machine around the place that could use a new lease off life.

Go with something like Linux Mint and an XFCE desktop - fairly windows like and uses less resources compared to the alternatives like Mate.

But don't discount alternative distros like Partition Magic and Knoppix as I just mentioned as well. They have exceptional driver support and the fact they can write to RAM really speeds up your machine. Just make sure your ethernet cable is plugged in and you will find they just automatically work. Instant internet. Loads of useful programs pre-installed.

Talking of pre-installed environments, check out Sergei Strelec's boot 'CD'.
https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/detail ... winpe.html

It has lots of tools to help you do stuff, like partitioning and multi-booting should you wish to dual boot a Linux distro with your windoze OS.

[Psuper]

@codec_spurt you may be right about Intrancer, I just took it for face value.

But yes, it's very doable to get an internet surfing machine that can do basic office tasks as well.

That's mostly what i set up machines for relatives for. But... even for such basic tasks, i always had to solve sevearal issues which arose on those machines. Nope, not something i'd just install for my grand mother, and she lives happily ever after. Linux is for people who are cool with tweaking their system. And who can solve problems if there are any (which is always the case in my esperience).

Alsol, if you're looking for the common software which is available on other platforms, it's a complete no-go.

I speak from experience when I say Linux is indeed the perfect system for people who aren't tech savvy, precisely the OS you want on Grannys/Moms/Dads/friends machine, especially if they have kids/grandkids/anyone around occasionally. Load it up, lock it down, never worry about viruses or people installing stupid shit and ruining all your hard work. But even then, cloning is your bestest friend in the whole widest world.

I clean slated countless virus-malware-ridden/slow friends and family windows machines until I put my foot down and forced linux on them - a few hours of their slight discomfort for a few hours of my work, to guarantee long-term enjoyment of the basics with almost zero chance of them screwing it up. Couple still have it, but phones have pretty much everything covered these days, and I don't make house-calls anymore.

[stearine]

Linux has a few advantages over Windows but very few that really matter... Moving to Linux isn't an alternative, it's more of a compromise... and with having thousands of pounds of software that doesn't properly support it including my primary DAW, leaving Windows for it, just isn't an option.

I believe this is a pretty good approximation of how Linux is perceived on average. Substitute the "thousands' worth of software" with "everything I'm used to and happy with", and the effect is essentially the same.

Linux has some huge advantages in specific use cases and especially in the hands of somebody who's willing to put in time to set everything up. It has [at most] negligible advantages in insignificant areas in casual use. For someone from a different environment who is under pressure to get things done, meet deadlines etc., Linux gives the ingredients of a catastrophe.

It's nice that you feel Linux is usable, but it's not enough that the desktop experience on Linux can match (if it can) that of Windows or macOS - that's not an incentive to even give it a try as that requires directed effort from your part. You need to have some other motivator, and for most users major ones don't exist.

Some people have been echoing the canon of Linux being more secure, but I don't buy that. Some aspects of Linux make it the perfect cracker's/script-kiddie's playground. That the malware 'industry' focuses their efforts on Windows is mostly due to wider propagation of the OS, but that is changing as more casual users are lured to the alternative OS'es under the promise of higher security or inadvertently by selling [mobile] devices. "Come on over, it's so clean and airtight that we don't even use AV over here!", to which the cracker and malware artisan says "Excellent..." :-)

[Psuper]

Linux has a few advantages over Windows but very few that really matter... Moving to Linux isn't an alternative, it's more of a compromise... and with having thousands of pounds of software that doesn't properly support it including my primary DAW, leaving Windows for it, just isn't an option.

I believe this is a pretty good approximation of how Linux is perceived on average. Substitute the "thousands' worth of software" with "everything I'm used to and happy with", and the effect is essentially the same.

Linux has some huge advantages in specific use cases and especially in the hands of somebody who's willing to put in time to set everything up. It has [at most] negligible advantages in insignificant areas in casual use. For someone from a different environment who is under pressure to get things done, meet deadlines etc., Linux gives the ingredients of a catastrophe.

It's nice that you feel Linux is usable, but it's not enough that the desktop experience on Linux can match (if it can) that of Windows or macOS - that's not an incentive to even give it a try as that requires directed effort from your part. You need to have some other motivator, and for most users major ones don't exist.

Some people have been echoing the canon of Linux being more secure, but I don't buy that. Some aspects of Linux make it the perfect cracker's/script-kiddie's playground. That the malware 'industry' focuses their efforts on Windows is mostly due to wider propagation of the OS, but that is changing as more casual users are lured to the alternative OS'es under the promise of higher security or inadvertently by selling [mobile] devices. "Come on over, it's so clean and airtight that we don't even use AV over here!", to which the cracker and malware artisan says "Excellent..."

There's a reason Unix/Linux flavors absolutely dominate the Enterprise/WAN market, and its called Security.

[stearine]

There's a reason Unix/Linux flavors absolutely dominate the Enterprise/WAN market, and its called Security.

"Enterprise" can mean a lot of things. I'd contend the notion if you're talking about businesses in general, as in many industries that use software tools for production the tools mostly exist on the two other major OS'es.

If you're talking about the network server/cluster/backend segments, even if so, the argument is misplaced in this context because those specifically fall under the category of specialized use. They don't simply slap a Ubuntu on their 10,000 nodes and run the whole typical Linux desktop apps arsenal on them "because it's secure", because they don't need it, and it's not. The actual reasons for using Linux in server segments is because it can be made into anything, including security-hardened, due to being open-source and as modular as you need it to be. If you work in the cluster/backend segment you have IT specialists securing the OS'es, keeping up to date on 0day exploits, developing & auditing code, penetration testing, or subcontract it. Your average joe on his Ubuntu desktop does not.

[codec_spurt]

...

Anyways back to topic: Steinberg going the easy path isn't something new. Happy to have switched from Cubase long ago. If it helps them to finally get their sh*t together, I appreciate that decision. Doing it mid cycle is am absolute dick move though imo.

More and more, software and software companies are being 'corporatized'. If that is the right term. I don't know.

Basically, they have us over a barrel. Most people who were going to buy Cubase have already bought it. The pre-existing users are at a disadvantage. It's bait and switch on a different level. Some companies do this for greater profit, some do it because they have to, some do it for convenience, and some do it just because they can.

So what you gonna do about it eh?

Exactly. Nothing. You are powerless and they know it. So they can pull dick moves like this all day and all night, and you might not even like it, but what you gonna do?

Some may vote with their wallet. But many won't, because life is short and time is precious.

As the market becomes saturated, and an ever-expanding group of companies vye for attention (and money) from an ever-dwindling market base, it only gets dirtier from here on in. "Only the paranoid survive" said Intel's Andy Grove.

I don't really know why Steinberg are doing this. They may have valid reasons. But I get the impression they are doing it just because they can, even though it may bring about some small advantage to them whilst seriously inconveniencing their wider user base. I don't know.

Look how long winXP was maintained. And still is by some devs.

I don't think it's too much of an ask to keep on with the compatability with win7. But I may be wrong, they may have had their hand forced by tech issues. Microsoft are the kings of dick moves, just for fun, just for profit, just because they can.

But I do notice a trending theme here among all software devs who just see other devs getting away with this shit. Sure it probably cuts down on dev time. It probably therefore boosts profits. And who cares about your mug punters who actually, you know, use and buy your software. What are they gonna do about it, uh?

I may be cynical, but not half as cynical as these companies are.

I already have all the software and more that I will ever need till the end of my life. How else are they gonna keep squeezing me if not by planned obsolescence?

And Cubase, whilst still most excellent dude, is not the only person at the party. If it didn't exist no one would really miss it (ok a few people like Junky XL and his film scoring pals). Studio One is a serious contender. Samplitude still holds sway. Ableton does something else entirely but still is a competitor. There are others as well.

In a way this whole DAW market is quite stagnant. They all copy each other. They all play catch up with each other. They don't fix bugs. They introduce new features that introduce more bugs all in the name of extending profits. Very little innovation really. Just more ideas on a theme.

And what benefits there are to be had, are drip-fed to us lowly mug punters again in the name of profit. Sure, they need to make money, they need to keep the ball rolling, but...

It's a game of cat and mouse.

I'm surprised so many people fall for it when considering the vast majority of people who pay out for this stuff don't ever see a penny back. How many people use this software to actually make money? Oh, ok, a few, but still...

I guess they could just be spending it on video games.

This is how I view myself these days. I have no illusions. I'm just another 'gamer', another mug punter.

When my mother calls me from the top of the stairs down to my damp musty basement, and says "Supper's ready, son", I just shout back up "I'll come up in a minute, just need to finish this computer game first".

Some people have a PS4 and Call of Duty. Others have a PC running Cubase. It's all computer games.

But there are only so many variations on the theme of the computer game that is Cubase. They want to stay in business. They don't just want to turn a profit. They want to get rich. This stopped being about 'passion' a long time ago. Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, got to go. Supper's ready!

[codec_spurt]

But yes, it's very doable to get an internet surfing machine that can do basic office tasks as well.

That's mostly what i set up machines for relatives for. But... even for such basic tasks, i always had to solve sevearal issues which arose on those machines. Nope, not something i'd just install for my grand mother, and she lives happily ever after. Linux is for people who are cool with tweaking their system. And who can solve problems if there are any (which is always the case in my esperience).

Alsol, if you're looking for the common software which is available on other platforms, it's a complete no-go.

This is the thing with Linux, the mileage varies a lot.

Some people do get a machine working and working flawlessly and get it working easier than what even a win box would be. Just talking internet and office stuff here.

But of course, a use case might be someone wanting to use a printer. And old people like to use printers and print stuff off and now we all know that printers are a nightmare at the best of times anyway, but in Linux world, that could be a world of hurt.

So many use cases. But people do get Linux boxes working fine for their grandma and grandad.


Alsol, if you're looking for the common software which is available on other platforms, it's a complete no-go.

No one is disputing this. But there are usually viable alternatives. Unless you paid 3K for a seat for Cinema 4D and you would probably already know that it does not work on Linux.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Linux is a pain in the proverbial. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Remember that DuX is a pretty advanced user (yes, more than most of us here) and so take his words with a pinch of salt. He flawlessly modded WinXP for use with Audio systems which was a Sisyphean task in itself, but some how he managed it. He's not your average user.

I was able to do some quite advanced stuff in Linux due to having a computer science background that most people don't have. But I was also embarrassingly stumped a lot of the time on the most basic of stuff.

Even for myself, my mileage varied quite a lot.

Your experience is not untypical.

But some people get lucky and get working Linux boxes that do everything they want, for a while at least, till the next thing goes wrong...

[stearine]

I very rarely contact a software house for technical support because the vast majority of problems can be resolved with a bit (or lot) of 'independent' research, i.e. trying things, searching the web, and asking other users. That I would not be eligible to receive support that I so rarely use, doesn't mean much to me.

The real source of worry would be technical incompatibility between the application and the OS. How likely is this to happen anytime soon? I don't know, but in my experience backwards compatibility has been pretty good on Windows. With a bit of twiddling I could even install a 64-bit Vista device driver on Windows 10, and the device actually functioned. Until it BSOD'd.

As for the security concerns regarding Windows 10; the reasonable solution might be to have a work computer separate from your personal computer. That's how things normally work, isn't it? If you are a professional, then you should have a work computer, for the studio, the one you plan, design & build or purchase, tweak for the purpose and keep clean.

If you depend on Cubase in your work, then you'll probably keep using it until the newest version that still works on your OS and then either:

1. stop upgrading
2. adapt to new requirements
3. look for alternative tools, or
4. look for a new job


As of this writing, nothing very radical has yet happened, so we can all relax (and stop downloading Linux and Reaper). No? :-)

[Psuper]

There's a reason Unix/Linux flavors absolutely dominate the Enterprise/WAN market, and its called Security.

"Enterprise" can mean a lot of things. I'd contend the notion if you're talking about businesses in general, as in many industries that use software tools for production the tools mostly exist on the two other major OS'es.

If you're talking about the network server/cluster/backend segments, even if so, the argument is misplaced in this context because those specifically fall under the category of specialized use. They don't simply slap a Ubuntu on their 10,000 nodes and run the whole typical Linux desktop apps arsenal on them "because it's secure", because they don't need it, and it's not. The actual reasons for using Linux in server segments is because it can be made into anything, including security-hardened, due to being open-source and as modular as you need it to be. If you work in the cluster/backend segment you have IT specialists securing the OS'es, keeping up to date on 0day exploits, developing & auditing code, penetration testing, or subcontract it. Your average joe on his Ubuntu desktop does not.

The 'average Joe' on his Ubuntu desktop is rare. The 'average Joe' has a malware-infested windows machine who has no idea he has any malware at all.

Smartphones however... lots of average Joes on them who has not a clue about security. And those smartphones dominate the "connected" landscape, easily the same if not more access and use than personal computers, and 80%-90% of that insurmountable number of phones run some flavor of linux -- the largest presence of any OS in the world, holding more personal and critical data than one would care to admit. Would that be more 'widely accepted by non-technicals' for you?

And the vast majority of infrastructure those connected phones run on? You guessed it.

[THE INTRANCER]

...
I think Intrancer was conflating DuX's point about using Linux as an every day OS and then using XP and win7 machines (airgapped) for music stuff.

As long as you compartmentalize your computer use like this, it makes sense. No one is arguing that it's even possible to get most music software to work on a Linux box - it's a non-starter.

And of course, so much other software just doesn't work either. If you do 3D for example, then great if you use Blender, but not so great if you use Cinema 4D. (Though you can use Linux nodes for network rendering. Last time I looked anyway. Maybe it's changed.)

Yeah.. I did read his post before I posted, with pretty much a reflection of my own experience and requirements. A few years back I dropped Windows for a full two weeks to try and settle on Linux as real production alternative for at least in the music field, downloading and installing every music program there was for it, navigating through the quagmire of the tangled audio system of JACK, ALSA, and Pulse Audio, non native soundcard mixing utilities, sound being cut out from the desktop apps ect ect.. reinstalling Linux a second time to fix it... I mean I got things working again but stuff like the Focusright Saffire Pro 14 control panel didn't work.. Studio One Pro, even version 2.6 didn't work properly through WINE, Reaper worked but I can't stand it's dated GUI underbelly ect.. Bitwig Studio was a viable possibility although I did encounter some stability problems...

I can run Cinema 4D through WINE, and do the regular basic stuff as in Windows like modelling texturing and rendering to screen, but as for rendering any animation to any hard disks... in any format... 'The Computer Said No'... I've never done any network rendering but I'd imagine that being pretty problematic as well..although I am aware of online render farms, (not sure if my version would still be supported). I wanted to render the the last cityscape flyover of my film project I posted here but I had to go back to Windows to do it.. took about 7 hours for 147 frames.

With Steinberg's announcement, it could just be like other graphic application developers that state that Windows 7 isn't officially supported but continues to work, like HItfilm does with their product.

[stearine]

The 'average Joe' on his Ubuntu desktop is rare. The 'average Joe' has a malware-infested windows machine who has no idea he has any malware at all.

Smartphones however... lots of average Joes on them who has not a clue about security. And those smartphones dominate the "connected" landscape, easily the same if not more access and use than personal computers, and 80%-90% of that insurmountable number of phones run some flavor of linux -- the largest presence of any OS in the world, holding more personal and critical data than one would care to admit. Would that be more 'widely accepted by non-technicals' for you?

And the vast majority of infrastructure those connected phones run on? You guessed it.

You're really going into labor with your arguments because frankly all I've seen from you is assertion after assertion, off-context tautologies and non-sequiturs. Again I don't see a point in your post unless self-gratification from producing words is it. That, or there's an impenetrable language or other cultural barrier. I'll go with that. Doesn't matter, it only means we must both accept that we were not meant to have this dialogue.

[codec_spurt]

....

As for the security concerns regarding Windows 10; the reasonable solution might be to have a work computer separate from your personal computer. That's how things normally work, isn't it? If you are a professional, then you should have a work computer, for the studio, the one you plan, design & build or purchase, tweak for the purpose and keep clean.

...

It's not really about security anymore. Things have moved on. It's about politics and human rights and human rights abuses. The right to privacy, if not the right to anonymity. The right to not have your mail opened and copied and gone through.

Face it. You use a computer. You are going to get data raped and privacy raped. By Microsoft. By Google. By your government. By the security services. By the very web sites and forums that you are a member of that you hold so near and dear (not saying KVR is doing this, but others do for sure). Hackers and crackers are the least of our worries now.

And you don't have a choice. If you voice your concerns you will be put on that list of 'conspiracy theorists' and get ready to have your back doors kicked in.

The game was over when Microshit posited Palladium and 'Trusted Computing' all those decades ago.

https://www.brucebnews.com/2002/08/398/

They have now mastered the internet. Facebook, google, NSA...

It's over. If you don't like it don't use a computer.

I see people just waking up and saying 'we need to fight this - stop using google, start using duck duck go'. They don't understand that google runs major infrastructure and don't care if you don't use their software as you have no choice but to use their 'hardware'.

It's a far more nefarious and sinister situation than them just storing your details and selling them to advertisers.

You can use programs to stop winX phoning home, but the game is already won and lost.

You are being data raped at such an intrinsic level that it is futile to resist.



Even Linux is compromised. Sure, it may be more inherently secure at an intrinsic level with regard to viruses and whatnot, but at other levels?

There is not a layer in the whole OSI model that has not been usurped for 'their' advantage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

Deep packet inspection? And that was yesterday's news.

This is all another subject for another day.


My point is that you can forget about security if you use a computer today.

There was a time when people could have stood up and fought this and possibly changed the outcome. But that time has passed now. It's over.

You just didn't love your freedom enough.

[stearine]

You just didn't love your freedom enough.

I quite enjoy reading those thought streams, but maybe that stuff deserves its own thread. This thread is about Steinberg's human rights violations. Here's a little nightmare material before I go to bed: https://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/hh/th ... trust.html - You seem just the right kind of person. ;-) My apologies if it's not a novel thing, but it's funny.